Erin's Scam Experience with a Loved One

0:01 This program is designed to provide general information with regards to the subject matters covered. This information is given with the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas. The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references. However, Rose Resources outreach to safeguard the elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam. Let's talk about scams. It's the must listen show for anyone who wants to protect themselves and their loved ones from scams. Every Tuesday am Pacific time on K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose, and her guests will provide valuable insights and practical tips on how to recognize and protect yourself from scams. And now here is your host, Joyce Petrowski.

1:20 Welcome back everyone, I'm Joyce Petrowski, founder and board president of Rose Resources Outreach to Safeguard the elderly. You can find more information on our website at Roseadvocacy dot org. You'll find our social media links on the homepage, and if you scroll all the way to the bottom, you'll see where you can sign up for the newsletter. We do one via email has a lot more information, but we also do one that we send in the mail, realizing that not everybody likes to get their information and read it on email, So you can sign up for one or both as a way to continue to get this scam prevention education and to help build your healthy skepticism because you need that in today's world with how rampant the scams are running. So today we have a guest.

2:08 His name is Aaron. He has been in the cybersecurity industry as a leader for a number of years and he's going to share his experience. Pros. There, can you hear me, Joyce? There? He is. Left already no. Good, good, Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah. So when I introduced you, I you know, I mentioned that you've been a leader in cybersecurity for a number of years, but you've all, but you're here to share your experience with one of your loved ones being a scam victim and how it's affected your relationship, your family and all of that. So let's start with just giving whatever you feel comfortable with the background on the scam and your your loved one.

3:00 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. So this this started a number of years ago, and that's actually how I came in contact with with you and found found Rose because it became one of those things that was incredibly frustrating to see happened to a loved one, and especially being I have worked in this, worked in cybersecurity and led teams and you know, just the the resources that are simply non existent and not available out there, because this is really comes down to it's really not a technical problem, right, It's a human problem. It's an emotional problem. And so yeah, for for us, it started a few years ago with my with my father in law, and it starts really small, and so I think the thing to think about is like just to notice those little red flags that come up. And so for for us, it started maybe four or five years ago. It was right around COVID times. I remember really specifically because it had started.

4:02 Right leading up to. Thanksgiving, and we got a you know, kind of a weird exchange text message where he had asked for you know, hey, I can you know, I need a little bit of extra money or whatever I'm going to be because, uh, our loved one, my father in law, was very dedicated to a church, very involved constantly, you know, working on projects with the church to you know, feed feed the needy. And so one of the things that came up is that he said, oh, you know, I can can maybe send me two hundred bucks for we want to buy some turkeys or whatever. It was that well, you know, we're doing for this thing, right and and we didn't think much of it at the time, but like in the back of your mind, you're thinking, oh, that's it's kind of a strange thing, right because normally very disciplined, you know, fixed income, but very disciplined, very good with it.

4:55 And thinking back that, you start to think, like that should have been a big a red flag to pick up on. So, you know, noticing something like that that was. Out of out of the norm was, uh, it was a red flag that we we probably should have picked up on at that time and drilled you. In a little bit more. Yeah, you know, it's you know, like you said, your father in law was very disciplined. He's on a fixed income, which a lot of older adults are on a fixed income, and he was very disciplined. So he he had a budget, and he stayed within that budget and and and all of that, and so being scammed would have been probably your last thought.

5:36 M exactly. No, And and. He was very involved in his church and and helping those less fortunate and and. All of that. And so you're like, okay, well it makes sense that he's going to be helping people with turkeys at the at Thanksgiving time? Yeah? Yeah. Was there was there another after that? Was there something that made you start to want to dive into it deeper? Yeah? Yeah, So I think and and and I think this this happens to to far too many people. And it happened a lot with you know, his folks became a little bit more isolated with with the pandemic, and and so that every lots everyone challenged with that. And one of the catalysts that really kind of accelerated our awareness and concerns with with what was going on was his his wife had passed away. And so we were, yeah, you know, talking with him more regularly and kind of getting a sense of it. And then the thing that kind of came out of it was, you know, oh, hey, I'm I'm you know, I'm I have this you know, I'm gonna you know, I have this new girlfriend or wife or whatever it is. It's going to come, you know, move in with me, right, And so that was really the start of the romance scam side of the okay, because you know, and didn't didn't this clearly supprise us that you know, you know, he was you know, you know, very dedicated to his church and you know, companionship and

7:09 and all those things. And we thought, oh, that's it's quick, but like, okay, let's let's learn more about it. And then at that point, once we learned a little bit more about that, he started opening up and sharing and then you started to you start to realize that, you know, you're, you know, in the midst of a of a pig butchering scam, because it's you know, it kind of followed followed all the same patterns of how they're going to come move with me, Oh they can't move. There was a car accident. Yeah, now, they're in the hospital, we just have to you know, send some money to to release them from the hospital. And so in in in those in those situations where it's it's really challenging. And then that's where I started doing the research to try and find like, how do you how do you talk to someone with this because there's no reasoning, right because in their minds, that person's real, right, Like that's a loved one about that's in the hospital that you're saying absolutely, that's not a real thing, right, And you know, the thing that we always try to be delicate about was not too upset or push away and just kind of lead with some empathy because that you take a hardline stance.

8:31 And my wife is way more empathetic than me and better than it. I'm I am more direct in a lot of those senses. But but this but the second that you go to rack and you say this is not real, this is you know, this is bad, you risk the chance of getting shut out, right. And so you see that all the time across these instances where people isolate themselves from their family because they are so ingrained with with with their with their scamera. That's that's just grooming them constantly, right. Exactly right. So I mean did he did he ever come out and say, like how long he had been engaging in conversation and relationship with this person? Because you know, we always say with the romance and the pig butchering and stuff, there's grooming involved, right, And it the longer they're in it, the harder and harder it is to try to get them to understand while, yes, this person is real, they're not who they say they are.

9:33 They're not in the hospital. And doctor Martina Dove was on last month and she even said, you know, people have to understand that the groomer is a real person. It's someone that that the victim believes has invested a lot of time with and it's extremely difficult to change their. Mind, oh one hundred percent. Especially becomes much more challenging in a remote situation where we we live in different states, and so you know, we we live for those few moments where either we travel to go be there, and we've we had done that a couple of times. And I'll kind of explain and talk about that in a second here, but but this this was with him all the time, right, all the time, and and it's just yeah, a constant, constant stream of you know, messages and contact. And but but to your to your original question, uh, because we later kind of found out that I think it had been going on prior to that, where there was some inheritance things kind of going on that had led up prior to that of like, you know, because he had read around that same time with the romance romance scam situation.

10:54 He had also sent a link that said, oh what do you think of this house? Oh, it's it's going to be mine. It's you know, it's going to be inherited, right, And so with with many of the situations, you you know, you become a you're a target rich environment, your phone number becomes available, and then he was just getting you know, propagated with with multiple different types of things and so and. He was vulnerable because he had just lost his wife right. Exactly exactly, and we think it maybe it started kind of leading up to that, you know, prior to that, but then just uh had you know, exponentiously gone gone up after after that, and so yeah, and then and then it got to the point after kind of those conversations, the Thanksgiving thing, the you know, the inheritance house situation, the romance scam, and the hospital thing, and then it finally reached to the point, it was like June or June or July where we got the phone call that hey, actually I'm gonna I'm gonna was my my home.

12:01 Right so he'd owned his home outright, but the you. Know, the the land fees and the homeowners association things like that had gotten to the point where that wasn't being paid for multiple months on months, months on end, where the terms of his you know, the community that he lived in dictated that his house was going to go up for auction if he didn't set up those things. And so. When we got that phone call, we've sort of been aware and having those conversations that you know, we we knew it was, you know, uh absolutely, I'm not gonna you know, send you a check. I'm not gonna wire you because I I don't know where it's going to go.

12:42 So we we got car, drove and went there in person who you know, physically I you know, we physically hand delivered it to the you know, the correct agency right that was, you know, that was responsible for the thing, because we because at that point then you know, I'm a very much uh you know, trust but verify, but still not trust anyone, right, and so yeah, exactly, And so we've gone through the paperwork and talked to the the company that operated the community there, and so went went in person and paid it. And then that's where we spent spent a few days and really learned the extent of of what had been going on and really tried to work with you know, a path forward of setting the budget, ending the communications. And I thought we were in a good place. And then the second that we left, you know, it was back to a store to pick up a gift card. And at that point we had you know, set up a power of attorney and gotten to the point where we uh got on access to the bank account and those kind of things, and you know, his his account.

14:01 Was was riddled with thread flags. Like that weekend we were out there and talked to his bank because there have been multiple instances where his bank was trying to do the right thing and he try and withdraw cash. And so he had gotten to the point where the uh you know controls that that banking entity had put on his account dictated that he wasn't allowed to use an ATM, right, like they would say, you want cash, you have to come inside and oh wow, yeah and put it on there. And so then those those are really good things, right that that that you know, financial institution was was doing. But at the end of the day, if he comes in and says, I need to take twenty dollars out of my bank account, like they're gonna.

14:41 They can they can only stop for so long to ask questions and to try to get But you know, I've talked to so many people and I'm I'm sure your father in law did this too. Is you know that. They would lie because they were already emotionally drawn in so and the the scammer are they're anticipating these questions that are being asked and they're giving them the responses. Mm hmm, yep, absolutely yeah. And it's a it's a it's a challenging, heartbreaking situation because it when you see it up close like that, it really is, you know, like a drug addict, right, It's it's someone that's a that has a physical dependency or a drug addiction, all of that exactly. And you know, there's no amount of logic and reason that's gonna gonna shake someone out of that and so and then when when we were there in person, that's where we realized that just the amount of times his his phone was just going off constantly, Right, it's just paying after paying, after paying, after pain.

15:54 Of just you know, people asking for things. It's it's just a continuous cycle where and that's and that's where you know, it becomes really challenging for people, especially in a remote situation, is that it really comes down to relationships and trust and and you know, having a good enough relationship with transparency around what's going on in your life are you communicating with online? And it can become a real real challenge if that that foundational relationship isn't. There, right, Yeah, and you mentioned COVID that this started right before COVID. It just put everybody. I mean, if that was a whirlwind for scammers, right, especially with the older adults. They were if they didn't have somebody that they lived with, a spouse, a partner, family, whoever it was, they were isolated, right. They couldn't you couldn't go out and play cards, you couldn't go play golf, you couldn't do.

16:50 Any of this. Everything was shut down. And that's a perfect storm, right, and having the vulnerabilities of you know, your the world being so much different now than it was when. And I'm going to say we because I'm in that category. You know, I just turned sixty, so I'm in that older adult category. How we grew up. It's it's totally different, right. And I find myself today, you know, just meeting somebody and they're really nice and this and that, and I start to I start to talk, and I'm thinking to myself, wait a minute, Choyce, you don't know this person, right, But it's it's kind of ingrained in you, right that everybody's out for your best interest. You don't hang up on people, you don't question authority, and you know you're always there to help.

17:41 So yeah, it's crazy, but but. Yeah, yeah, And that was a big kind of recurring theme that we talked to because, like I said, he was very heavily involved in his church, and so I think part of the when we had gone out there and started to get in contact with some of the leadership from his church and some of the folks that had, you know, kind of seen it firsthand, is is those they were our eyes on the ground, you know, and you know, we got to a point where we were really thankful that folks like that that were near him, close with him in his community were able to kind of provide us information and tell us what was really really going on, and. That was super helpful. But but a big thing that we talked a lot about with many of those folks was like, what does this say? You know, is it just you know, a stubborn thing. Is it part of a generational thing? Is that I don't want to ask for help? But like I think it it really becomes something much much bigger than that, Like I think it, Yeah, absolutely, generational and cultural norms do do feed into it, but I think it really it becomes a you know, a physical or mental dependency and then not not letting go of that, of that belief because you know, with you know, as it got went ontle bit later and we started to learn about some of the other kind of inheritance scams that he was going and you're you're talking about you know, exorbitant amounts of money, right, you know, tens of billions of dollars that he said are going to be coming

19:12 coming to him, and then you start to you know, you still can't have a logical conversation about it, right, because you can't say, oh, the you know, the you're going to inherit the GDP of a you know, a sovereign nation, right, like, there's no logical reason to think it, right, that. Just doesn't make sense, right. But you and I are sitting here in our rational thought frame of mind thinking of it. He's knee deep in his emotions with you know, was it the same person that was contacting him all the time or. Yeah, they like friends of the of the scammer. You know, I say friends in quotes. Because potentially, but yeah, potentially he was on different lots of different chat ops, right, so like you know, Telegram, WhatsApp, all of the various different apps. Yeah, definitely using a lot of the different money money apps, so cash app, PayPal, you know, some of the Zeal some of those other other ones, And I think, yeah, some of those are better than others, right as far as like the controls that they that they take place, and yeah, you know red food flags that come up and like that even with myself when I use that, right, like a transaction that I had never done with someone before kind of got got got flagged, Like oh yeah, that's that's a that's a good thing. But but but I think that that's the other thing too, is like once you know, he got to the point where you know, hey, money

20:44 money stied. I can't I don't have the money to to go get another fifty dollars gift card or one hundred dollars gift. Card or whatever. And and that's where we started noticing like, hey, there's you know, there's a stack of like and he showed us there's like a stack of you know, twenty five different cash App debit cards that had come in, like, oh, I have all these different cash App cards. And so it got to the point where he was moving there. There's instances where and this this is a common thing, right where maybe that that victim has become you know, the well has run dry, right that it's the resource has been exhausted, but there's still some type of use for the for the scammers where they're then saying, all right, we'll find I'm going to send you this money. It's going to go to this and then I need you to go send it over here. Right, So the money so exactly right and even even physical right like we've heard that time and time again and like, hey, there's a package coming, right, you're gonna you're gonna pick it up, and then you're going to deliver it to this place, and they become not only a victim, but then another, uh, you know, part of the part of the scam itself against against others.

21:54 Right, because that that's illegal. Right. And in I think Brian on one of his last episodes he did, he had Martin, who's a retired FBI agent on and they talked about money mules and how how a lot of the older adults are victims in the money mule because they think they're just doing someone a favor, you know, being nice to them, when in essence, they're now entwined in this illegal activity and they don't know it until law enforcement comes to their door and says, listen, this is illegal. You need to stop, right. And yep, absolutely absolutely ye, And it's yeah, it's a challenging situation.

22:38 And I guess to. The path that we followed with him got to the point where, you know, maybe a year or so afterwards, after the this kind of can continued, we helped to save the house the first time and got to the point where it happened again where the bills were being paid. Hey, I'm going to lose my home. And and and and that's where you have to make a really difficult decision to say, we're gonna treat this like a drug addict, right, like we we love you, we can help you, we can support you, but like not under the same constraints that we're operating in because we're just you know, we're repeating the same the same cycle and so in and ultimately with that situation, he did end up, you know, just losing everything, right, So to this to this to this day, and that he's you know, safe and around. There's still people in this community that are helping him. But it's it's still still going on to this to this day.

23:42 Oh he's still engaging and. M hm yeah, yep. And so yeah, and it's it's it's challenging because I think it just has to get treated like a like a mental mental illness. Folks need to be able to get you know, intensive behavioral FA therapy to be able to realize and and again going back to like what I said of you know, finding ros and coming on the board here and being able to help with the mission is because there's a real lack of resources. Right when something like this, especially someone someone like myself who's been in cybersecurity and you know, seeing these you know, various scams and and attacks on a on a daily basis, and then to just kind of feel helpless.

24:29 You're like, what do you what do you do? How do you help this person? And and and try to look at it from a you know, logical problem solving perspective, and it has to be attacked with a you know, behavior of therapy, empathetic approach to be able to address it, right, because it's it's it's it's not a you know, there's no amount of you know, technical controls that you can put on your your life. Right, everyone's got the bank makes you put multi factor authentication to log into your accounts, the you know everyone, lots of people use password managers, right, people don't use the same passwords. But again, it's it's not someone that's breaking into your house and you know, smashing a window and then coming in and stealing all your things.

25:18 It's you opening your door, welcoming and welcoming someone in. Exactly. You are willingly giving him this exactly. Yeah, and that. Makes it you know, I've I've read a lot of stories where the victims are like, you know, why didn't the bank stop this, or they've trying to go back to the bank to get reimbursed or get their money back, and it's like they can't because. You willingly gave this money away. Yes, you were under and I'm not a psychologist Martine would know the correct term, but maybe emotional distress or something like that. But at the time, right it, We've asked you all these questions, you gave us answers as to what you were doing with the money, and in the end, it's your money, right and unless you have somebody has power of attorney, you know, or someone's on the account with you, or I mean, I don't know what all banks, I think their hands are tied to a certain extent. There's probably more things that can get implemented in the future that would make it more of a deterrent. But like you said, it's at the end of the day, if it's it's the person's money, and if they want to get it out and they're going to lie with some excuse, then they're going to get the money to do with it as they please. Rights It's really difficult and that's why getting you know, so

26:53 like what we tell people with Rose when I'm in these presentations, our goal is to get you not to go to the bank, not to go to the ATM machine, not to go to the store to buy the gift cards, because once you do that, you're already in that emotional state and you're just going to lie in order to get the money to do what you need to do, to get somebody out of trouble, to get your prize, to help get your girlfriend or boyfriend or you know, whoever it is. And so that's why I think what we do is so integral. It's to get people to understand one that these scammers are out there and the world is so much different now than it was back in the seventies and eighties, and you lifted up your cell phone before you know, we tell people, listen, this is not just a phone. This is connected to the internet.

27:48 It's a mobile computer, and you have to treat it as such, you know, with the antivirus, antimolware, and you have to know that your numbers out there. It's out there. People scammers know your phone number, and they're very good at what they do. And so engaging with them. You have a short window to stop it before you are, in essence, sucked in and you're doing exactly what they want. So and social engineering, I don't know if we talked about that. That's exactly what you were talking about, was the emotional exploitation and the social engineering. And you said, it's it's not a technical issue. It's a human. It's a human and that's the social engineering part of it, which.

28:37 Is so difficult. And you've lived through it and if it started back around COVID, you've been going through this for over five years. Yeah, yeah, And I think. And as you were saying, this is kind of starting to think about it, and is anyone else out there that's dealing with this or or you know, going through with a loved one. There's a really good book called The Power of the Habit, and it really talks about the habits that we that we have and and the processes that we follow to keep and maintain. Good habits, bad habits, whatever it may be. But a key thing with it, and I think about this with if anyone's going through a scam, is.

29:21 That there's a trigger, you know, a ritual and. Then a payoff, right, and so when you think about these these scams, that that trigger is is constantly going off, right. It's it's a trigger of saying. Hey, I need, you know, just twenty more bucks and we'll release the funds and then you'll get it right, and then you there's that ritual of of you know, either going and getting the money or getting the gift card or whatever it is, and then sending it off. And the scary part is that that. Payoff is is the hopefulness, right, is the payoff is the is almost part of that ritual of like, oh, gosh, I did it. I'm gonna you know, I'm going to get to meet my loved one. Now I'm gonna I'm going to get this large inheritance, this house is going to be mine, right, and then the cycle repeats itself, right. And so I think that's something that they've really really keyed in on, maybeing the scammeras of like just that psychological loop of just you know, the human condition of a habit of saying, you know, trigger ritual payoff and then you know the scam victims are in this perpetual hamster hamster wheel.

30:29 Wow, that's just and like you said, earlier. You know, I think we've I've often said scammers that they want one thing. They want all your money, right, they want all your money. And then you know, once they've gotten all your money, they still will use you in an illegal you know, money mule, or they're going to steal your identity to get more money. And you know, I've I've heard from some people in the presentations. You know, they're like, well, I don't have any money to give, and so they think they're safe, and it's like, you're not safe. I said. They can steal your identity and get all this money, and then you're left to clean the mess up, you know.

31:13 And if you're fine cleaning a mess up like that and having to go through all that, then you know, more power to you. I'm not I had I think you remember I had my identity stolen a year ago with the. Tax return and. It was frustrating, right because you're on hold with the IRS for two hours, and right, you have nobody plans two hours in their day to be calling the irs. Right, that's just not in your day. But yeah, there's there's a lot of different things that they can do. And then at some point, you know, sometimes the victims then realize, oh my gosh, you know, something just snaps in there and gets them out of that emotional state and they're thinking rationally and they realize it's a scam. The psychological effects it now it's it's all over again, right, and you know it's just oh my gosh, it's I don't know.

32:16 It's That's why I'm like, everybody needs this preventative education, right, It's that they need to under They don't have to understand every single scam because you know, we would always be behind the eight ball because they're always it's so lucrative for the scammers. They are constantly coming up with new ways to exploit people and take your money. But I think that anatomy of a scam we did was was phenomenal, right, and people understand the contact part of it. They can understand all three parts of it. But if they can cut it off, cut it off at the contact, they are going to just have such a healthy, more fulfilling, you know life. Yeah, it's uh, but getting people it's it's one thing said, but getting people to understand why this is needed is difficult because I hear, you know, oh, well, my grandparents or my parents. They still have their cognitive you know abilities. They're fine or they're really smart. You know, they're not going to fall victim. And I don't mean to be crass, but I'm like, until they do.

33:28 Yeah, because they're shure, and it's yeah, and it's it's only going to get more challenging for for all of us, right because. Right with artificial intelligence, it's. Exactly where I'm going with it. Right, Yeah, with the rise of artificial intelligence, in the rise of the use of AI, and something is simple like fishing, right, and you think, oh, yeah, it'll just it'll send more you can maybe stammers can send more phishing emails. Maybe scammers can send better phishing emails. But when you think about the rise of cybercrime and data breaches, you you know, compare that with you know, add that with with the use of AI, and you think, like, you know, if if if you're inbox were to be breached, right, all of your send emails contain your voice, your tone, how you communicate, all of that can be taken and put into an AI model and we can have a joy spot, right, and then that that joy spot can write any phishing email in your voice, in your tone just as good as you could, right, And and that's that's that's the kind of things that that are that are concerning, is that because we all laugh at the past fishing emails where things are misspelled and you know, the tone is wrong, and maybe you can tell that maybe English isn't the first language, or there's you know, just little those little nuanced things. AI completely changes all of that, right, Like there's there's all of that goes all of.

34:56 That goes away. Those little you know, little breadcomb trails that maybe you're not talking to the same right person that you're talking to, completely go away. It's the same thing with videos, right, Like you think about a like a legacy romance scam where you know, you know you're. Dealing it would never want to come on. Video exactly right, And all of that is sort of negated now, right. And that's that's the that's this that's the one of the scariest things about it. And I think it just kind of goes back to what you were saying, is that prevention awareness is it's it's one of those things where in an upfront investment and prevention and awareness is better than any cure, right because once the act has occurred, and the scam is already active, it's going to be infinitely harder to rectify that situation.

35:46 Right, right, And you know it's I think, uh, I don't know. I think there's a lot of people that in the in they're subconscious, they think, well, that'll never happen to me, or they if they're you know, at an independent living you know, community, they're like, oh, well, that'll never happen to our residence. It's like it probably already has. And if you're thinking has great, And if you're thinking that'll never happen to me, you're now one of the more vulnerable ones. Because you're going into it thinking it will never happen, you are now more at risk to falling victim. I mean, I had a friend of mine who is one of those Google experts, right, never thought he'd fall victim to a scan. He fell victim and lost a couple hundred dollars. But he was like, I never he goes, I'm on the computer twenty four to seven, I do this Google right, And I'm like, you're human.

36:46 You were excited to do the survey because you thought you were going to get this prize, and you wanted that prize. It was something you were going to go buy anyways, and now you're getting it at eighty percent off, So you're not even thinking, well, this doesn't make sense. This is too good to be true, right Yeah. And that's that's the age old adage, right if it's if it seems too good to be true, it probably is. And I think, yeah, I think one of the things that maybe you could have done a better job with, or anyone could do a better job with, is just you know, just enforcing the thought of like a trusted contact, right like if someone is reaching out to you, you know, blindly, right Like, it's the same thing with with with with children, right Like, there's a ton of really really good controls that Apple and Android put in place to support you know, trusted contacts.

37:37 Right So when you set. Up a you know, a phone, watch, iPad whatever for for a child, you can set up the concept of trusted contacts where in order for someone to be able to communicate with that with that with that miner, they have to be authorized, that has to go through an approval process, that has to be an email or phone number that the parental guardian says, yep, absolutely, you can this is you know, Billy or Susie's phone number or their email and then you put him in this authorized contact and anyone else just gets deny listed. And that's and that's something that as a general concept that you everyone should think about. It's like if you you know, get a you know, text message or social media message that you know, just not going to respond to that, right, most people shouldn't.

38:28 Right right? Wow, Wow, that's uh. I was just thinking back to what you were talking that you're that your father in law is still as far as you know, involved in it, but has lost his home, Thank goodness. He has people friends, church, friends where he lives that are helping him and that you guys have contact with so you can keep tabs on what's going on. But wow, well, you know it's you know, I'm sitting here thinking, well, you know, what, is there just some way to say something that's already been said that maybe we'll, for lack of a better term, snap them out of it?

39:12 Right? Yeah, that's tough. Yeah, yeah, and it takes. Yeah, it's uh, it can can be really tough. And I think the other piece is that it takes to your point you you often ask yourself that same thing as like what what can I do? Differently, what can I do to snap them out of it? And I think that's that's another piece that it takes a toll on the loved ones that are that are involved because they think constantly like what can I do to stop this? What can I do? What could I have done more? And you end up in this kind of self shame, self blaming cycle where in all reality, like it depends on where they are in the in the state of the scam, but like there's not a whole lot that you you could have done, because again it's it's exactly like a drug addict, right is that you know, just like you can't you know, they say you can't get sober for for other people, or you can't you know, stop to drugs for people for yourself exactly. And I think that's the that's the same mindset and methodology that that folks need to think about with with scams.

40:21 And so. You know, it still at the same time being supportive and helpful and you know, being there emotionally for someone and caring for them, but at the same. Time, there's no amount of reason or. Logic that can can get get through that, get through that barrier. And I think that's difficult for some people. It puts them into They might start leading with empathy, but then I think they are frustration comes in and you have to be very careful with that because you're thinking reasonably and logically. They're not right there. They they've been.

41:04 They've been brainwashed right to think a certain way. And this, the scammer that they're dealing with, like doctor Doctor Dove said, is a real person, and to them, it's one of their trusted people, right, just like a family member might be a trusted person, just like a good friend might be a trusted person. The scammer is one of their trusted people. And although I hate to see, you know, families have a rift between them, but I can I can also see where where someone can get really frustrated with it.

41:45 Yeah. Yeah, and then that's a totally normal feeling to have with it, because it is incredibly frustrating, right because we go back to the you know, the logic and reason of it, and and there there there's no logic reasons. Sometimes it's it's it's that trusted person, and that can be it can be devastating to a family right, because you see it, see a loved one, and you think, like, you know, they're trusting this you know, random person on telegram over over me, right, And that can be like emotionally devastating and have really deep impacts for the rest of the rest of the family. And everyone deals with that differently, but it can be really emotionally challenging to see someone going through that. And then because you, like I said before, you start to kind of blame yourself and you get concerned that, you know, what could I have I done more? Why does this you know, why is this love one believing someone else over me? And it really goes back to the you know this this phone is with them constantly and like I said, going back to when we were out there with them, just the amount of you know, once once you're in that that cycle for for scammers and they have a you know, a you know, victim on the on the line, they're going to do everything too absolutely to keep to keep them engaged. Right.

43:06 It's you know, it's it's strong, strong calls to action, strong hooks. Like it's like I said, spone was was buzzing constantly, constantly, constantly. Right, They keep that constant contact that if they're not texting, they're calling, they're on like Telegram, WhatsApp, because those are I know WhatsApp is encrypted. I'm assuming Telegram is as well. Those are those encrypted apps, which you know, part of our presentation is is if you're sending personal if that's the only way that you're sending personal information, you know those apps are encrypted right to be able to use those.

43:47 But then again, just like they're just like these these technologies out there for good for everybody, and artificial intelligence was brought out for good, right, and it's available to scammers and they doesn't take them long, but they figure out how to use it to their advantage. It's I think Bill had had something a year or so ago, a slide that actually showed that cyber crime was like the third when when they list the industries that make the most money in the year, cyber crime was like number three. Mm hm oh yeah, you know, it makes makes total total sense and yeah, yeah, I mean I think I think that's the other thing when you when you have these conversations with loved ones and you think, you know, what are the who am I communicating with and and what platforms? Right, because same thing Facebook Messengers is end to end encrypted, but then it comes down to who are you engaging with, how did they come into contact with you? And then why are you engaging with them? Right, there's all of these different you know, encrypted messaging apps and some some are you know, they yes, they serve a very valid purpose, right. End end encryption is super important for protecting the confidentiality and privacy of messages being sent from one person to to another and then doesn't let the organization in the middle read or if it's intercepted. Right, I think that plays a really really valid role. But there's there's bad things that happen on these platforms. There's

45:19 reasons why criminals and cyber criminals and other types of criminals navigate to those those types of platforms because you know, there's little social moderation that that happens, little account validation that happens, and so yeah, if you uh, you know, get on that platform, you can you can be anyone. It's the same thing conversation I have with with my kids is that on online you can be anyone. Right. I think that's the conversation that has to start start early, because you know, it's it's a it's a problem that plagues you know, preteens and teens that are you know, getting their devices for the first time, and then that continues throughout their entire entire life cycle. And so that I think that'll be one of the really interesting things to see happen is this current generation of one of the first generations that has grown up kind of like a digital and AI native generation that's that's growing up of how the scammers were will evolve over time because crime crime is never going to go away, It's just going to continue to happen.

46:23 It's just you know, how we. You know, increase that awareness and learn and grow with that to get an understanding of how this this next generation is going to is going to grow up with it. Yeah, yeah, it's wow. It's uh yeah, I think back, you know, like I said too, when I grew up in man totally different world, totally different. I was watching a Facebook real last night and there was some lady on there talking about she was like, during the day, we were not allowed inside the house. We had to be outside, and companies made ads to remind parents they had kids that were outside, right, And it was just like it was like, yeah, because you know, some people didn't have a TV, right, other people had TVs, but they were off all the time.

47:15 It was like, go outside, go outside and play, right. But back then we didn't have to worry about, you know, someone coming along and snatching us. It just didn't happen, right, I mean it happened, but it was so rare that it happened. You just didn't have to worry about those things. And now with all of the technology, like you said, everybody from whenever, whenever they get a phone, right, they're on it constantly. Yeah, right, and. They can be they can be whoever they want, and whoever they're talking to can be whoever they want.

47:57 A lot of people. Hide behind social media, texting, all of that stuff. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's that's the. That's the the expansion of the remal possibilities, right, because when you think about you know, going outside, right, Like, and I think about this in this conversation I have with my kids all the time. It's like, there's much more risk in the Internet and with with you know, an unmonitored, uncontrolled internet than the physical proximity, I think, right, because you can control physical proximity, there's less people uncontrolled, unmonitored Internet access at any any age is significantly you you widen your you know, you know, who can take advantage of you or who can contact you becomes you know, the entire world, right versus those that are you know, in physical proximity.

48:56 And that's that becomes much much more dangerous. And also because like to your exact point, is that it could be anyone, right, It's that is the that is the key recurring theme across all of these scams is that someone pretending that they're that they're not right. Yeah, I mean it's. You lose a lot more control online and you can't control what the other person is doing saying whatever. The only thing you can control is your action or reaction or lack thereof. Right, you just say, I'm not responding to this, right. I constantly get text messages from a random number with just a very innocent text that I would normally years ago respond to with sorry, you have the wrong number, and then they respond with something to get you into a conversation. A friend of mine told me recently they responded like wrong number, and then they responded back, and after a couple times responding back and forth in conversation and my friend realized, wait a minute, what am I doing. I don't know this person, and then cut it off. But that's how a lot of times it started is just these random right messages, and and your control is yourself. You're either in action, action or reaction.

50:21 Yep, yeah, absolutely, And yeah, I mean I think, like, don't get me wrong, I love all of those you know, scammer wasting time videos that I see. And you know, I think there's there's some folks that do it really really well. I think you're average person that you know, it's it's it's just a validation, right, you pick up that phone, you respond to that text message. You know, it's just a validation that Yep, this is an this is a this is a this is the target, right, Like, this is a phone that works with the person that picks up. And then you just be you know, you you go on another another list for you know, because if it's if it's romance, yeah, not romance, it's inheritance. If it's not inheritance, it's I support, right, So you just kind of go down that that iterate that list.

51:05 But yeah, that's the thing that's like, yeah, like I said, Don't get me wrong, I love all of those videos. I think I think they're good. I think there's some folks out there on YouTube that make really great content specifically around that. But I think your average person that uh, you know, it's better to like just like I said with with you know, setting up you know, a phone for your kids is setting up a trusted context list that just denial lists everyone that that you haven't haven't approved. Right, that's the you know, the model that many companies have gone to. Right, it's just a zero trust mindset and methodology of deploying technology that just you know, you assume, assume breach, you assume scam, right, Like, you just build your life in this moddle of of you know, this is not a trusted contact. I don't know this person, you know, just filter that, filter that out of my life.

51:55 Like I think that's that's one of the mindsets that we just have to adapt to. And that's that's all part of the healthy skepticism, Right. You don't have to then get farther into it and start asking, you know, then going back and verifying and all of that. You're just like, Nope, don't know this person, zero trust. Get you know, get rid of it. And if you, like you said, you you get on a list, you start responding, you get you get on a list that you're it's it's a valid phone number, somebody will answer or respond back to you. And scammers are so good. You might not fall for the romance one or the inheritance, but guess what, you fell victim to the it support. They are just going to keep. Hounding you and hounding you and hounding you and exactly, and they're going to get you at a time where you're not thinking clearly and you're going to click, You're going to call a number, and.

52:47 You're just knee deep into the scam by that point. Mm hmmm. Yeah. And I think that's I think you hit on a really good one there, that that folks should also be aware of if they're talking with their loved ones or or even for themselves. It's like, if there's that strong call to action with that immediacy, that that should be a red flag, right, that should always be a red flag for for anything. If they're saying, hey, I have you on the phone right now, You've got to do this this thing right now, that that is absolutely absolutely a red flag and so you see this with then we talked about the use of AI and voice modulators and videos and those things, and and then that will continue to get worse, right, And you hear about these these horror stories of hey, you know the kidnapping scams, right, like, hey, you hear you know a voice that sort of sounds similar to a loved one or or whatever it is.

53:38 And there's that strong I just like the loved one, right exactly. And so the use of AI is going to continue to propagate that and advance advance that. But understanding that strong call to action is a huge, huge red flag. Yeah, yeah, well I was just looking at the time. We are just a couple of minutes before one is going to get in the chat and go. You need to wrap it up. So thanks Erin for coming on and sharing your story. And I'm going to say some prayers and hope that your father in law is able to realize the scam and and get his life back on track.

54:23 And in a good way. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I appreciate that. And yeah, for anyone out there listening, just yeah, talk to your talk to your loved ones early, early, and often. Right, you can start as as young as you know, your nieces and nephews and children. And I think, like we talked. About before, the whole reason I became involved with Rose because as a security professional, I felt helpless and I didn't know where to go. And these resources and education and awareness are are fundamental to preventing preventing this and so but but but we can't do it all. You can't do it all. We have to enable everyone to be able to have those tools and resources to go have conversations just like this one, to be able to educate and make aware. So folks, you know, it starts to start to have that in the back of their minds as they as they go through their their normal daily lives.

55:16 Right right, absolutely, all right, Well, thank you again, Erin, and I'll see you in a couple of weeks at. The board meeting. Ye all right, thank you, Thanks by bye. All right everyone, Wow, that was that was quite the story. We hit on romance scam, inheritance, money mules, all of that, and so, as Aaron talked about with his his experience, the best thing we can do is to continue to talk about scams and and understand just basic, you know, basic understanding on how scams work and have that trusted contact.

56:02 You want to be able to have that with, especially on your phone. Right, as Aaron equated it to the kids, right, nobody gets to be in your contact list unless they've been verified by your trusted contact, which for a child is normally going to be the parents you know, or their or their guardian. But having this education, this awareness about scams, and you don't have to know every single scam and how every single scam works, but having the awareness about scams in general, and then putting things in place that can help protect yourself. But we all have to remember that. We're human and by being human, we are susceptible and vulnerable to falling victim to scams, and so we have to watch out for each other. Getting regular education on scams is really the best way to keep scam pervention in the back of your mind. We have a lot of ways that you can do that. Yet we have the in person program where we come out and go over all of this. Get on our website and we've got a tab that says schedule your presentation and have us come out to talk to your group. There's also our social media channels. Right now, we're still not back up on Facebook. We're working on it. I'm hoping it's going to be soon, but it's been about a month now that we've been down. But we are on LinkedIn, We're on Instagram, we're on YouTube. You can find all

57:34 of these radio shows on YouTube. And we also have the Let's Talk about Scams dot com website, but you're on the homepage Roseadvocacy dot Org. Scroll down to the bottom. We have a mailed newsletter and we have an emailed newsletter. Emailed newsletter, you're going to get a Tuesday Tip nine to fifteen. Every Tuesday morning you need to, you get a tip and it just helps you keep that scam prevention in the back. Of your mind. All right. Time is way over and so I need to go and I look forward to seeing you guys next week. Well that's all the knowledge for this episode. Tune in every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on KFOURHD Radio at KFOURHD dot com as Joyce explores a variety of knowledge.

58:24 So you have the power to make scam protection your healthy habit. And until then, feel free to reach out to Joyce and Let's talk about Scams