Cryptocurrency ATM Scam Refund

0:01 This program is designed to provide general information with regards to the subject matters covered. This information is given with the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services. Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas next. The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references. However, Rose resources outreach to safeguard the elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam. Let's talk about scams. It's the must listen show for anyone who wants to protect themselves and their loved ones from scams. Every Tuesday am Pacific time on K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose, and her guests will provide valuable insights and practical tips on how to recognize and protect yourself from scams. And now here is your host, Joyce Petrowski, Hi, I'm saying active, mentally, thing, chess.

1:23 Those are all the very important things. I'm seventy two, but I'm going to keep on learning. I'm going to keep on moving. I'm gonna keep on living my life. Healthcare for David's next move. Learn more at archwellhealth dot com. Hi, everybody, welcome back. I'm Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose Resources Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly, and before we begin, I want to thank Archwell Health for being a sponsor of our radio our Let's Talk About Scams radio show. They're going to be sponsoring for the month of June and July. They have expanded their partnership with us this year and we are just beyond excited to have that partnership with them. If you've not been over to an Archwell facility, there's ten of them in Maricopa County, there's a few in Tucson, and they've got some in other states. I highly suggest you get over there and take a tour of one of their facilities.

2:18 I think you'll see that they have. They've thought about every little detail when it comes to the older adults and doctor visits. So don't forget to get on our website at Roseadvocacy dot org. You'll find all of our social media links there. Scroll down to the bottom of the homepage and you will see where you can sign up for our email and or our mailed newsletter. The emailed one, you're going to get a tip Tuesday every Tuesday morning at nine point fifteen. You might already know what the tip is, but there's another just as important reason to be getting those is it reinforces your scam prevention habits and keeps at top of mind.

2:58 So when you are contact, you know you're more apt to think scam and then go through the steps to make a determination if it is a scam or if it's legitimate. So today we have our guest with us, Gail Barr, who is going to talk about her scam experience and also the cryptocurrency ATM refund that she receives. So let's welcome Gail. Hello everyone, Hi Gail, how are you? I'm good? How are you? Joyce? Good? Good? Thank you so much for being willing to share your story this morning. I know it can be hard sometimes to talk about uh, you know, falling, falling victim to a scam, but if you wouldn't mind sharing your story, and we can get started.

3:52 Okay, Joyce, Yes, I I. Was for sure. Let me just let me just say I with it work. It was my sevent seventieth birthday, October fifteenth, and I. You know, finished my job. I was. I'm a nurse practitioner, and I finished my shift and was checking my birthday messages in the office and saw a that I had a call, and I listened to my voice smail was a call from let's see, it was from Chief Deputy Derek Elmore. It was a message on my on my phone saying he's from the Maricopa County Sheriff's Department and there was an important legal matter concerning legal documents I needed to address concerning the honorable Judge Jennifer Zips, so please call back, and he gave me the number and the extension. I immediately looked up Derek Elmore. He was indeed a Phoenix police officer, and Jennifer's Zips was an a tuc Son judge, so you know.

4:58 And I called the provided number and then they stated it was the Maricopa County Sheriff's Department. I was connected to Police Captain John Bailey. They gave me his badge number, and he said I was hand selected by the Honorable Judge Jennifer Zips to be on a grand jury and a medical mail practice case scheduled for October fourteenth, a day before my birthday, and I didn't show up and she didn't take kindly to that. And I also said I signed a subpoena which I didn't sign, but I thought, well, my son was living with us at the time. I thought, well, gee, maybe he signed something. So there was a little bit of a yeah my mind, yeah wow.

5:43 So you know, it's interesting. I have talked to some people, you know, probably two three years ago, and they would say, well, scammers don't leave voicemails, and I'm like, no, they they're leaving voicemails. Whether it's them actually talking or it's a computer that they've got, you know that's leaving a voicemail. But they're doing it because I think they're realizing that a lot of people aren't answering the phone if they don't know who's calling. I get a lot of that too, right, So it makes sense that they would start leaving voicemails and you know, making it sound so official, right, using sheriff's the sheriff deputy's name and then using an actual judge's name. You know, they they they have ways of finding all of this information out. A lot of times they you know, can look it up on the on the website, and you know, higher up people are usually listed on there. But it's I think they have other ways to find this information. So that that must have been pretty scary, you know, talking to them thinking that you miss jury duty And did they immediately.

6:59 Go to like threatening you that you're going to get arrested? Well not at first. They they just said that there were two subpoenas out for my arrest and that I had to go to the bank and get get a certain amount of money out to pay for to pay a post bond amount and sixty dollars right away today via and I was going to give the money through a federal bonding kiosk. Oh they called it a federal bonding kiosk what they called it? Yeah, wow, okay, all right, that makes it all the more believable, right, ye good. Especially during COVID right there a lot of like the Maricopa County Recorder's Office had these kiosks out there if people wanted to transfer their title.

7:54 They could go to a kiosk instead of having to go down to the recorder's office. So I think because we you know, I mean COVID's it's been a few years, but I think saying that it was a federally bonded kiosk, it yeah, right, uh huh, yeah, absolutely so did they did they want to stay on the phone with you the whole time? They wouldn't let me off the phone. They said, you have to stay on the phone. You have to talk every five minutes. They wouldn't they, you know, they would not let me get off the phone. Did they give you a reason why you had to talk like every five minutes?

8:38 They said, because I could skip town. They had to know where I was, and that there was a gag order so I couldn't talk to anyone about the case. It was called a maintained contact order, So I had to stay on the phone. That's what they called it, a maintain contact order. I have to stay on the phone with them the entire time and talk every five minutes. Wow, that's that's that's very detailed. That's very elaborate, you know what I mean. It's it's yeah. Yeah, the length that they go to to make this sound so official and so believable. Is just they they really do their homework.

9:21 So they you went to the bank, you got the money out, and they gave you directions on where to go. Yes, and they did. It happened to be a circle K, which I thought was strange that there that there was, you know, for to deposit money and they would have that type of federal bonding kiosk in a circle k. Turned out it worth a Bitcoin machine at circle k. Okay, at the moment, did you did you ask them, you know, why they would have a federally bonded kiosk at a circle k? Or is that something you thought about after the fact. It's something I thought about after the fact that I knew something was wrong. I knew something was wrong I have.

10:12 I had COVID in twenty twenty one and I was pretty sick with it actually, and then I had a post COVID pneumonia. After that, I had some memory issues that I was diagnosed with a mild cognitive impairment okay, amnastic type and they did get better over time, and so I thought, but I don't know if that had played a part in and my wanting to just take care of this problem. You know, here somebody is calling me, let me take care of this. Then I'll go home, you know, after work. You know, but that possibly could play into older people being more vulnerable.

10:53 Yeah, absolutely, right, because the cognitive I don't know what the right word is, but uh, cognitive impairment mild modern here, right, it's also it's a huge range, right, And I think a lot of times, and this is my opinion family members, because I went through this with my mom years ago, he ended up she had dementia for a number of years and then she went into Alzheimer's and and all of that was I think as family members, we we might notice something, but then we write it off as something else because we don't want to think that that there, you know, is a cognitive impairment or going on.

11:46 But uh, yeah, it's uh. And then a lot of times I think we've we finally start taking note of it and start doing something, but it's already become moderate to severe. Right, that's my opinion. Going through it with my mom, right, you just keep thinking, oh, well, they're tired, or you know, they're just not thinking clearly or whatever. And you know, I think it was one day where I, uh, I. Left the house for a half hour and I came back and we have a gas stove in and the burner was on. There was no pan or anything on the stove, right, And it was like, okay, something's not.

12:26 Right here, right. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's definitely a delicate situation. It is. And you know, mine was mild and it was getting better, so I felt I could do a job that wasn't too demanding, which I did opine with. But you know, it does affect your confidence and and you're the fact there's you notice different little things that happened, but your memory, yeah, yeah, to use a lot of notes, you. Know, right, right. So one of the things that you mentioned was they said it was a maintained something.

13:09 Order, a maintain contact order contact order. Did you ever find out when you after you reported it, if that actually is a legitimate thing, a maintained contact order. I did not. Oh, I'm just curious if they actually are using the same type of things that you know, legitimate police officers would use, or lawyers would use and stuff like that, or judgments would use. But so so you had to stay on the phone, you had to talk. They took you to a circle k.

13:51 To go in there and to put the money in, and it was nine thousand, two hundred and sixty dollars. Is that what you said? Okay? It took an hour to put the money in. An hour. I was standing there an hour. And did anybody from the store, like a clerk or anybody a customer, Did anybody come up to you and talk to you about, hey, maybe you might be getting scammed at all? No? Int I. After the scam, I went to the store and I let them know what happened, and suggested that that they keep an eye on on people, you know, especially other people on that machine, you know, and and that kind of thing. But yeah, no, nobody meya.

14:38 It was interesting. I saw somebody sent me a video that I watched and the clerk and it was in a different state, but the clerk called. The police, and it was the police's body. Cam that saw the video of the recording, and it was like, the clerk said, she's already put two hundred thousand dollars in, And my thought went to, we're just now intervening, and she's already put to two hundred thousand dollars in. She had to have been standing there for a very long time, right, you know, so were you able if it took you an hour? Also that you couldn't have done it all in one transaction, correct.

15:22 They kept sending me five different bar codes that were very official. They had the official Maricopa County Sheriff's Department insignia on each of the bar codes, and the bitcoin machine took two thousand dollars at a time only. Yeah, So that's when they put that new cryptocurrency Kiosk law that went into effect last September twenty sixth. That was one of the safeguard parameter safeguards that if you're a first time user, you can only in a maximum of two thousand dollars. On the surface, you look at that and go, well, that's great because that could really limit somebody from losing tens of thousands of dollars. But they scammers very quickly found their way around it. They did, right, because they sent you the barcode, you put your limit in. Well, then they send you another barcode. You go in again and put two thousand more in, So you'd have to go through five of them to get to your nine two hundred and sixty dollars. Yeah, and I think I think the law says they raise it to like ten thousand or ten thousand, five hundred if you're a reoccurring user.

16:46 But you only have to like the fourth time or something like that that you use the machine and you're now considered a reoccurring user, if I'm not mistaken. There's there's like two pages of different things they put in that went into effect when this new law went into effect. But so you you put the money in, you would have probably have gotten five different receipts from the. Kid that saved every one of them. And then you know, you think, okay, this is over. I'm done with this. I don't have to worry about going in front of a judge or having the police show up to arrest me, all of that stuff, and you go home.

17:28 No, that's not happened. That's not what happened. Okay. So that's what happened was I was on the phone with them. I said, okay, I've deposited all the money. Now I'm coming down to They wanted me to come down to the Maricopa County Sheriff's Department, and they wanted me they said, we want you to come down and do a signare signature analysis to see if it if you know, if it didn't match or if it matched the the subpoena one, and then they would they would get me all my money back, and they set up another court date. But I got on the phone with them and said I coming down, you know, anticipating I get all my money back. And they said, oh, oh, there's a federal citation out for you. Then we need more money. Oh jeez, yeah, okay, all right, they wanted you to go through the same or yeah.

18:17 Okay, and do you remember how much they wanted for this federal citation? Twelve thousand dollars okay, wow. So it's it's hard for somebody to think of these things on the fly. So they had to have had a full script any time, going Okay, if I get the person to talk to me, this is what I'm going to say, right and if the person starts questioning me, I have these answers any questions, you know, like I I'm gonna hang up, I'm going to go do this. I'll call you back. No, you have to stay on the phone every five minutes. Blah blah blah, there's a gag order all of that stuff. But then as soon as you're done, then they have the next step they go to, which is, oh, there's now this new federal.

19:11 Thing that's out there. Yes, and so after they talked to you about that, what happened? Well, and I said, I don't have you know, that much money, and so then they reduced it and said, we'll talk and see if we can get it reduced. I said, okay, three thousand. They came up with that, and you have to go to another bank and get that money out. And they also told me, Joyce, that you have to when you go into the bank, you have to put your phone in your purse and you know which now of course we understand why, yes, and so yeah, So I went to another bank nearby the Sheriff's department and went in there to try to get out another three thousand dollars.

19:56 So, same bank, just a different location. H yes, okay, that's interesting. Luckily, what happened there is the manager was there and he knew something was wrong. He said, who is this money? This money for? And they told me to tell tell whoever asked for my son. So I said, for my son. And then they said, are you going to give that? The bank manager said, are you going to give that money to him today? And I at that point I just I couldn't continue. I just kind of shook my head. He said, let's go in the back and talk. That's when he told me this was a scam. I hung up the phone, and that's what happened. Wow, okay, Wow. You know I've often said in our presentations, you know, the the clerks at the stores that sell gift cards, the tellers at the bank, the bank employees, they are getting so much more training on what to look out for and how to ask questions and talk to somebody.

20:59 You know what. Maybe ten years ago you could go in and withdraw that kind of money and no questions were asked. But now they're they're getting so much better at being able to recognize it. Did they suggest to you that you report it? I don't recall if they did, but I did report it. I mean, that was just my natural instinct to report it. But the most the best thing that I did was I contacted Channel twelve news, okay, and then I met the reporter and I was on their segment about the scam. But the reporter of Bianca told me a new cryptocurrency law that just went into effect a month before my scam.

21:47 Good she knew about that, and that's how I found out. Yes, it was amazing to notice. Yeah, that's that's interesting because you know, I think that they put a press release out about it. But. You know, for her to remember that and ya, because I'm finding outside of maybe the news media reporting on it once or twice, because I think the law passed I want to say the previous spring, you know, maybe April May something like that, but then it didn't go into effect until the end of September, so I think in that that five or four to six months, you know, people might have forgotten. And so so thankful that she remembered that and was able to tell you.

22:33 Yeah, So then. Did you did you report it to the Attorney general or or the police or who was it that you went to. I reported it first to the police, and I had a private detective working sport with me to the Attorney general. And also for this law, you have to come and you have to do all this quickly within thirty days. Thirty days, right, Yeah. Then I also called the cryptocurrency Kiosk phone and to report what happened. Oh good, I have to do all those three things to get your money back. Okay, So you do have to report it to the cryptocurrency operator as well, that's correct. Wow, Okay.

23:14 In reading the law, I thought it was reporting it to the police and or the Attorney general. So did you find that all three of them worked with you and took all your information and there there wasn't any roadblocks through any of. That reporting none good at all? And did did well? I would imagine the police gave you a copy of the report. The Attorney General probably gave you a copy of the report. Did the kiosk owner? Did they send you anything. Just to check for sixty dollars quickly after I gave them all the information they needed?

23:59 Okay? So yeah, that would have been the third place to call to say, hey, I have this report. I was scammed. I've gone to the Attorney General the police. Here's all my information. And would you say in a matter of a couple of weeks you receive. The money or more less than that? It was a couple of days, really, And he sent you a check. They didn't ask you for your bank account information to deposit. No, very good, very good. I'm very very happy to hear that. Did they say anything about, well, if it would have been over ten thousand, you would have only have gotten ten thousand back or anything like that.

24:40 And he didn't say anything about that. That's good because and I've not seen that in the law, that there's a limit to what you can get back. It's just some question that came to my mind that you know, maybe they might have put a limit on it or something. But that's great that you were able to get that money back, because that very rarely happens when somebody gets scammed. The money, well, the money that you sent is gone, the scammers have it, but the owner operator that came out of their pocket. So but still, I think that's awesome. Thank goodness that law went into effect. I know we've talked about it on this show a handful of times.

25:28 I talk about it in our presentations. You know, in a thirty day period, it's a short window, but it's so imperative that once you realize that it's a scam, and sometimes it happens within a few hours. Other times it might happen within a few days, and it takes a few weeks. That's still only fourteen days. You still have time to report it, right. But I know a lot of people they don't like to talk about being scamammed because none of us think that we're gonna get scammed, right, It's it's just something that we don't think we're gonna get scammed. We don't think our loved ones are going to get scammed. Because I think there's this.

26:18 This false connotation with scams. People think that if they fall victim to a scam, that means they were dumb or they did and that is so not the case. You know, scams are all about emotions. Yes, they definitely used your emotion of being scared against you, right, you know, and they kept saying just enough to keep you in that emotional state. Because I think, well, I'm gonna ask you this question now looking back at it and it's you know, six seven, eight months old. But maybe even when you realized it was a scam and you're thinking logically and rationally about and going back and reliving what happened.

27:06 Did you notice red flags? Mm? Hm, oh yeah, I certainly do now. And but let me just say this, Joyce, I feel that older adults I might be a little more trusting. You just can't believe that people are going to do this. You know, you're kind of I feel that we might be more trusting in general. You know, wasn't our was back when you know, our whole life. But absolutely, so many red flags. There were so many every you know everything Now I understand about what to me, yes. And it's so looking back, it's like, well, I was thinking off of an emote, off of emotions, and so when you're thinking in that emotional state of mind, you're not seeing the red flags right right.

27:57 You're not, and your logical thinking is just just on pause, and it's all that emotional thinking and the emotions. It is. So it has nothing to do with intelligence, because, Gail, I think you're a really smart person. My mother was a nurse, and anybody that is a nurse, a nurse practitioner, you're pretty darn smart. To have to go through all of that schooling and pass those tests. And all of that stuff. You're smart. So it has nothing to do with intelligence, and scammers know that. That's the whole Have you heard of the phrase social engineering? I'm sorry, are you there? Gail?

28:44 I think we might have lost her? Oh nope, there we are okay, I can hear you now, Okay, sorry about that. Yes, I've heard of social engineering. Yes, so that is what they do. That is the social engineering where the scammers use your emotions against you. They use your kind heartedness, your trusting nature against you. And you know, that's what we tell people in the presentations, is is And I'm in this category two. You know, as an older adult, how we grew up, right, we grew up in a world where we could trust people and then go and verify if if we even wanted to verify what was going on. We were kind hearted, We helped people, you know, we trusted that everybody had our best interest at heart. And back then, you know, ninety nine out of one hundred times we were good nine and a half, you know, I mean it was it was sometimes even ninety nine per se, you know, or whatever. But still you get the point, right. But and those are really great ways to be and habits to have. But mixing it in today's technology rich world, the scammers figured out how to take that and use it against us. And you know, I talked to people with about technology and stuff, and technology has its.

30:14 Place in with scams. It can prevent you know, most scam calls from getting through your phone. You know, it can prevent, you know, certain things, but it doesn't prevent the social engineering because scammers can get you to bypass the technology. And they did that with this cryptocurrency. They knew that because you were a first time user, you were going to be limited to two thousand, so they found a way to bypass it and just it took you an hour, but they kept sending you new barcodes and had paid five transactions. So that's you know, it's that's the whole you know, social engineering part of it. So it's just and that's where what we do with the education is so critical, right to get people and to be able to pause and to think about things because that it is our emotions can make us. They put our mind in a totally different frame and we see the world differently through an emotional lens than a rational lens. I mean there have been times where I've made decisions based off of an emotion and then a couple hours later, I've gone back and went, oh, I don't know why I did that.

31:42 That was you know, that was not the right thing to do. So, I mean it it happens to all of us. Yeah, so, I mean. Thank goodness you decided to go to the news right to where I think you're one of the few because most older adults don't want to talk about it. They don't want to they don't want anybody to know what happened. They're embarrassed, which if. I was in your shoes, and absolutely, I mean that is a natural response. But thank goodness she went to the news and this Bianca remembered the law and told you about it.

32:29 That's that's phenomenal. And it's great that because I've wondered when I've talked about this law, I said, we're just going to have to wait and see over the next six to twelve months to see if people are really getting reimbursed, right, and then if they are a lot, If there's a lot of people getting reimbursed, then I look at it and go, well, at what point are these cryptocurrency companies, because it's my under standing they're the ones that own these machines. Are they going to say we're incurring too many losses here, We're just gonna we're going to be done with.

33:09 This and not these machines. I don't know if you've you've seen. But there's about four or six states that have completely banned those machines. Right, and Air's almost not one of them. But we're at least making strides to make it more difficult. Yes, I would to be able to help the victim recover their losses, so right, yeah, But I just I'm so happy that you got your money back and you were willing to share your story. I know you've shared your story a few places. Thank you so much for being willing to come on ours and share your story.

33:52 But is there any anything else that you think would be beneficial? Well, uh, I think, uh, just uh, when you know, when you're unsure, just maybe. Hang up and hang up, hang the phone up. Uh. And that's about it really, And I'm glad. I was thinking that it would be good in doctors' offices maybe to incorporate, you know, the latest scams, just you know, letting people know that might not be a bad idea when people go and for their visits. Yeah, that's something with our increased partnership with our tual health, We're going to be putting some posters together to hang in their office.

34:42 Just people to start thinking. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, because the more we see it hear it, read it. More things to have it when they say that it takes three weeks of doing something on a regular basis or hearing it or seeing it become a habit. So yeah, yeah, that's one of our goals is just to make That's why we have so many different platforms that people can get information, they can continue to hear it and see it all of that. Read it so well. Again, Gail, I can't thank you enough for wanting to come on and share your story. I think this is phenomenal your experience and also getting this information out there again about this new law and that thirty days is critical and making sure you do follow the.

35:39 Steps, and so happy that the cryptocurrency company literally took two days and you got to check. That was phenomenal. So thank you again, and I hope we can stay in touch. Okay, that would be great. Thank you so much, Joy, thank you, bye bye. All right everyone. Wow, that was a lot of information. So happy for Gail that she was able to recover her money. I wish she didn't didn't go through what she went through because I'm sure it was very draining and very emotional. Thank goodness for the manager at the bank the second location that she went to that was able to recognize what was going on and take her aside and talk to her in all of that stuff.

36:36 So don't forget about that new law that we have here in Arizona with the cryptocurrency ATM machines. If after you have put money in, hopefully you don't put money in one of the machines, but if you have and you realize, even if it's a couple of weeks after, that's still within the thirty day window, report it right away. Gail went to. The police and the Jorney General does not go to both report it. And then you get a copy of your reports, and you call that owner of that cryptocurrency machine and you give them all of the information, and by law in Arizona, they're supposed to refund the money to you. And it only took a couple days and she got her nine two hundred and sixty dollars back.

37:23 So don't forget about that law if you want. I don't know the actual number of the law. It went into effect September twenty sixth of twenty twenty five. But if you just google new cryptocurrency atm KIOSK law in Arizona. There's a lot of information out there about it. You can go through it, and you have to keep your receipts. And Gail had all five of her receipts because they had her do five transactions because she was limited to two thousand on each transaction. So that was a way the scammers got around that. That part of a new law with those limits is they just kept sending her new barcodes as if it was an because it was a new transaction.

38:12 So keep those receipts. Don't forget to get on our website at Roseadvocacy dot org. You'll find all our social media links. Scroll down to the bottom of the homepage. Sign up for those newsletters. We have one via email, one in the mail, and don't forget. If you are near an Archwell Health location, go in there take a tour. They're more than happy to give you a tour and talk to you about about what they do. Medicare only primary care physicians. I've I've taken a tour of many of the facilities and you will see they have thought of every little detail when it comes to older adults and reducing anxiety about going to the doctors, and I believe they even have transportation options as well. Wonderful company. Next week we're going to have another guest on Patrick. He's going to talk about some technology that they have that they've developed. The name of the company is Savvy s a v I.

39:14 So until next week when we talk about the technology with Patrick, everybody have a great week. Thank you. Well that's all the knowledge for this episode. Tune in every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on KFOURHD Radio at KFOURHD dot com as Joyce explores a variety of knowledge. So you have the power to make scam protection your healthy habit. And until then, feel free to reach out to Joyce and let's talk about scams.