Feb. 3, 2026

How agents investigate pig butchering and other scams

This week’s guest is Christopher Scheer. He is a Special Agent with IRS Criminal Investigation. We will discuss various scams including pig butchering. We will talk about how criminals utilize cryptocurrency ATMs to facilitate their scams and whether this money can be returned to victims.

Let’s Talk About Scams is broadcast live Tuesdays at 8AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Let’s Talk About Scams TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

Let’s Talk About Scams Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Disclaimer: The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional / legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references; however, R.O.S.E. Resources / Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam.

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WEBVTT

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This program is designed to provide general information with regards

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to the subject matters covered. This information is given with

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the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station

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are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling,

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professional service, or any advice.

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You should seek the services.

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Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.

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The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational

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purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional

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legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted

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sources and references. However, Rose Resources outreach to safeguard the

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elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim.

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To a scam.

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Let's talk about scams. It's the must listen show for

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anyone who wants to protect themselves and their loved ones

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from scams. Every Tuesday am Pacific time on K four

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HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose, and her guests

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will provide valuable insights and practical tips on how to

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recognize and protect yourself from scams. And now here is

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your host, Joyce Petrowski.

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Good morning, My name is Brian Watson, community Outreach specialist

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for Rose Resources Outreach to Safeguard the elderly. I am

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filling in for Joyce Petrowski this morning. She's gonna be

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out next week as well, and then Joyce will be back.

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And so welcome to Let's talk about scams. We have

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a guest today and I'll introduce him in a second.

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And the title of the show today is how Agents

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investigate pig butchering and other scams. So we like to

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bring on people that are subject matter experts, and today

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that is the case as well. So today's guest is

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Chris for Share. He's a special agent with IRS Criminal Investigation.

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He was in the studio a second ago. Let's see

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if he's still there there is excellent. Can you can

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you hear me?

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Christopher?

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Yes? I can? Can you hear me? All right?

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Beautiful, thank you, So let's introduce you properly. So Christopher

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is graduated from the University of Wisconsin in two thousand

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and seven with a degree in finance investments in banking.

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He worked in the private sector until about twenty seventeen,

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and then he was hired by the FBI as an

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intelligence analyst and then in twenty twenty, he became a

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special Agent with IRS Chriminal Investigation. He is currently assigned

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to IRS's Criminal Investigations Phoenix Financial Crimes Task Force, and

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he's also a member of the FBI's Phoenix Iber Task Force.

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He's worked a variety of cases including paycheck protection program fraud,

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healthcare fraud, money laundering, and crypto investigations, and that's why

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we have him here today. I'm proud to say that

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Christopher is a former colleague of mine at the Phoenix

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Field Office with IRS Criminal Investigation. We worked together for

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about three years before I retired. Christopher has a reputation

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for both being very smart and hard working, and I

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thought it would be good to tap into his technical

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expertise today. So good morning Christopher, Good morning Brian, thanks

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for having me. Hey, so, how long have cryptocurrency ATM's

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been in existence?

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So they originated back in the mid twenty tens. I

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think twenty thirteen was when the first one was installed

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that I was in Canada. The first one in the

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US appeared in twenty fourteen, and they've really ballooned.

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In number since that time.

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Today there are over thirty thousand ATMs within the United States,

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approximately six hundred of them are here in the state

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of Arizona.

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So tell me how they work.

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So, a crypto ATM is very similar to you know,

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what most of us understand is an ATM where you

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go and get cash using your debit card. So it's

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a physical machine, and you typically find these in convenience stores,

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gas stations, liquor stores, but you can you can walk

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up to these machines and you have two options. Typically

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you can put in cash or you can use a

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debit card to purchase typically bitcoin, but they also there

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are some machines that allow you to buy other cryptocurrencies,

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such as ethereum, So you can just put in your

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cash and you tell it where you want the bitcoin

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to go. So, if you have a wallet, let's say

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at coinbase, you can typically get a QR code that

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you would scan on the bitcoin ATM, and that's basically

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telling the machine, Hey, this is where I want the

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crypto to go once I purchase it.

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So how much do they charge to use them? Are

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there any fees associated with using a cryptocurrency ATM?

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There are definitely fees, and they are high.

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They're much higher than purchasing crypto via coinbase, for example,

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these ATM machines are going to charge you anywhere typically

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between ten twenty twenty five percent of what you're purchasing,

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So the fees are very high compared to maybe one

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or two percent that you would pay purchasing through you know,

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coinbase or finance.

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So the fees are.

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I'm sorry about that, Sorry to step on you. So

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if I'm at home, I could I could purchase cryptocurrency

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through my laptop or through my own phone, couldn't I?

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For sure?

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You could, you know, using a laptop, you can go

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to Coinbase. I'm using Coinbase a lot, but there are

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many exchanges that would offer this service. They all have apps,

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you know, that you can download onto your phone, so

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you could use your phone, you know, just laying in

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your bed, you can sit.

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There and purchase cryptocurrency if you want.

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Typically you would have your bank account tied to your

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virtual currency account, and then that would allow you the

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ability to purchase whatever cryptocurrency you want. You know, Bitcoin

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is by far the most popular, Ethereum is also huge,

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but there are literally thousands of different coins that you

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could purchase.

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Now.

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These ATMs that are located at convenience stores and liquor

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stores and malls and all over the place, And you said,

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there's six hundred of them in Arizona alone. Can you

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withdraw cash from these ATMs? Or they don't work that

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way at all?

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I don't know if all of them work that way,

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but some yes, you definitely can. You can actually sell

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cryptocurrency and obtain cash.

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What which scams involve the use of cryptocurrency ATMs by

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the scammers.

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So cryptocurrency in general is involved in almost every type

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of crime you can think of in today's world. Using

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ATM specifically, you're going to see a lot of impersonation

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scams or imposter scams, which we can get into. There's

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you know, the romance fraud, investment fraud where people are

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convinced to, you know, purchase cryptocurrency, and that's one way

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that the scammers facilitate that they direct the victim to

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these different atm you know kiosks where you can just

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put in as much cash as you want to purchase crypto.

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In those cases, the QR code is typically provided by

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the scammer to the victim, and the victim is probably

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being told, you know, this is going to go into

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your personal account. Here it's going to be safe. This

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is your account. Just scan this code. However, the victim

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goes up there scans the code. Little little do they

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know it's going right to the scammer's wallet and they're

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probably never going to see that money again.

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So if someone has been scammed, what should they do.

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Let's say, you know, they they fell for the jury

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scam and they were convinced they owed money and they

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were given a QR code, They put money into the machine.

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They lost a few thousand dollars, they don't have it

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went to the scammer's wallet.

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What should that victim do?

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I would say the most important part right away is

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to contact local PD. Make sure they contact a police

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department and get a report written up and hopefully you

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know that victim, will you keep your receipt because you

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will get a receipt from that ATM that's going to

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have very important information. That's going to allow law enforcement

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the ability to trace those funds, to see where they

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went in an attempt to perhaps freeze them and try

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to get that money back for the victim. So reporting

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it as soon as possible is very important. Because the

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crypto can move, you know, can hop around real quick.

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It doesn't take long. So the quicker you can report it,

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the better chance you have of trying to get that

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money back. There's also you know, you can report it

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to you know, local PD. You can report it online.

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Another good avenue is going to be IBM's Internet Crime

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Complaint Center better known as IC three. I would encourage

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victims to report it there. Report all the information that

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you can, all the identifiers that you can give them.

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The more the better in terms of you know, who

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were you contacting, what phone number were you using, what

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name did they use? You know, what wallet address did

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your funds go to? Because then the FBI, you know

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that that gives other law enforcement agencies one specific you

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know depository, let's say, where we can search for, you know,

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these types of crimes. Because most of the time, you know,

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there's not just one victim, There's gonna be many victims

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that are being scammed by this same group of scammers.

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So if you can try to lump that all together

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and see what information you know, each victim has reported,

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you know that gives you a better chance of being

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able to identify who's behind it to try to get

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your money back from.

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Your experience, Where are most of these scams emanating from.

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These scams are typically.

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Being conducted by large, you know, transnational criminal organizations based

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in other countries. So think you know, Nigeria, China, Cambodia, Myanmar, Russia,

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They're really they're they're.

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All over the world.

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Unfortunately, there are huge scam compounds in Myanmar, for example,

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that have thousands of people basically being forced to scam people.

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That's a story we can get into if you'd like.

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But there are these huge scampounds, scam compounds where yeah,

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that's all they do all day is try to you know,

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scam victims, and most of the victims are in the US,

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and most of them are six years of age or older.

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So let's let's talk about pig butchering. What is it

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and where did that name come from?

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So pig butchering, the name came from a Chinese term

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which I'm not going to even try to pronounce because

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I'm not.

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Sure how to pronounce it.

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But it originated back in the late twenty tens, it's

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my understanding, you know, twenty eighteen nineteen, And it really

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involves a type of investment scam or romance fraud where

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the scammer tries to build a relationship with the victim.

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It starts out, you know, just slow, friends. It can

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take months of just building trust with these victims, and

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then eventually the scammer is going to bring up a

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cryptocurrency investment opportunity. And by that time, these victims are

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just so convinced that this person on the other end

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of the computer or whatever is you know, their friend,

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and they wouldn't lie to them, and they have trust

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in them. So slowly you start, you know, the victims

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start sending in funds buying cryptocurrency. The scammers have built

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elaborate websites that look pretty legitimate, where you can see

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your balance, you can watch your money grow, and in

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the beginning, the scammers will actually allow you, the victim,

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to withdraw some of your funds to provide you know,

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another just to make it more legitimate, right you can.

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Maybe maybe they'll let you take out a thousand bucks. However,

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as you see your balance grow and all of a

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sudden you've made several hundred thousand dollars, you know you're

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going to want to take that money and maybe buy

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you know, a new car, a new house, what have you.

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When you try to get that money back. They're going

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to tell you that, you know, there's fees that you

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have to pay, or there's taxes that you have to

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pay in order to get that money out. So I

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think the first thing that a victim would say was, well,

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why don't you, you know, use the games that I've

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made to pay those fees and to pay those taxes.

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And they will tell you that, you know, that's not

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how it works. You need to send in additional funds

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to pay these these fees. It's basically one, you know,

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a last ditch effort for them to squeeze just a

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little bit more out of the victim. And then once

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you know that that doesn't happen, or the victim refuses

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to pay any more money, the scammer disappears. You're never

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going to hear from again from them again, and they

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have all your money.

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Well, it's I know a little bit about pig butchering,

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and I definitely learned a few things there. I like

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that part about the taxes is one last way to

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get the last bit out.

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That's that's amazing.

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So let's say someone did fall victim to a pig

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butchering scheme and they lost all this money can they

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get money back from money they put in a crypto

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currency ATM.

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So if it involves an ATM, it's really dependent on

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the state that you're in, as well as you know,

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did you report how quickly did you report that this

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scam took place, because I know there's some instances where

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you know, there's state law that says these crypto ATMs

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have to reimburse victims as long as they reported it,

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you know, within a certain time period, say thirty days,

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and so they have that police report and they can

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show that to the bitcoin ATM operator. But typically, you know,

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maybe you're able to get some of the fees back.

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So you know, if you lost, if you put in

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two hundred thousand dollars, you know, maybe you can get

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some of the fees back that you paid when you.

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Know, bought all that crypto.

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I've heard of that, But in terms of you know,

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getting your two hundred thousand dollars back, that's pretty far

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in between. It's it's not a great chance of happening.

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Right And like you you shared, this is a long

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play scam. They build trust and it's over a long

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period of time where you've sent in that money and

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it can be moved multiple places, and it's so hard

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to track. What do you what do you tell victims

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that have lost money? You know, I'm sure you've met

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people face to face or on the phone that have

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lost money and what are these scams?

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You know?

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What do you tell them?

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Yeah, it's I have.

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And unfortunately it's a difficult conversation to have because it's,

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you know, like we talked about, right, the scam. They've

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been talking to this person for months, possibly over you know,

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over a year, who knows, so they have this relationship

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with this person. They it's very hard for them to

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believe that they've been scam So a lot of times

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the conversations that I have to have with them involve

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me trying to convince them that they're victim of a scam,

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that the person that you've been talking to isn't who

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you think they are. They're literally just trying to get

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more money out of you, So, you know, you try

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to convince them of that. You definitely make sure to

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tell them you don't don't send in any.

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More money trying to seem contact.

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I mean, I know, again, it's hard to stop talking

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to someone that you've probably been having conversations with every

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day for months, So I get that. It's it's difficult,

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and you know this, this happens to everyone. It happens

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to doctors, it happens to lawyers. It's it doesn't just

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happen to you know, it can literally happen to anybody.

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It doesn't matter the age. I know, the elderly are

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certainly more vulnerable and their targets because likely you know,

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they have at their point of the in their point

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of life, right, they have probably a significant retirement savings

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account for example, So the scammers know that the elderly

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have a nest egg of some sort where someone in

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their twenties, you know, fresh out at college, they probably don't,

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so you're not going to get huge returns out of

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a younger person. So they definitely focus on the elderly.

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But yeah, it's and like you said, it is hard

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to You can trace the funds, see where they go

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and hope that you're able to freeze them, but you know,

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the money moves so fast and it ends up overseas

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in someone's account in a country that probably isn't going

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to be you know, willing to work with US law.

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Enforcement without mentioning any specific cases. What are some examples

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of dollar amounts that have been lost in cases that

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you've either reviewed or are aware of.

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Yeah, a couple probably two years ago. Now, this is

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just a good example. I was contacted by someone he

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was retired recently, but he lost seven hundred and fifty

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thousand dollars where he was just sending you know, fifty

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to one hundred thousand dollars at a time towards the

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end because he had so much trust in who he

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was talking to. So it's you know, it can vary. Obviously,

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some people catch it earlier on where maybe they've only

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lost you know, ten twenty thousand dollars, which is still

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significant for some people, right, but I have seen losses of.

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Over a million dollars.

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Wow, And I mean it completely ruins their life, right

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because you can't get that money back. You think you're

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making all this money and crypto and you're going to

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have you know, just so much to buy when you

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get those funds, and you just you'd never see it again.

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So it forces people to you know, file bankruptcy, have

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to go back to work, maybe if you're retired. So

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it's it's a really sad situation.

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Unfortunately.

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Have you ever had a victim that absolutely refused to

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believe that they were truly a victim?

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Yes.

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I was actually just talking to a colleague this morning

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about a situation that he was involved in. He was

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talking to a victim, and she believed that she was

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talking to a celebrity, and she was just one percent

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convinced that it was it was really him and she

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wasn't being scammed. She was just unwilling to really answer

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the questions that he had for her in terms of,

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you know, when did you start talking to him? What

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communication like, what phone number is he using?

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And all that.

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She was very hesitant, wouldn't give up the answers, and

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she just refused that she was being scammed.

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Wow.

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What agencies investigate cryptocurrency related scams?

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I would say cryptocurrency related, Like I said earlier, it's

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involved in almost everything these days. Even if the main

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scam is you know, cash or a wire transfer, a

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lot of the times that still ends up in cryptocurrency.

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So I would say that every agency is working crypto

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in some fashion, you know, working scams, crypto focused scams specifically.

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You know it's going to be FBI, I, R, s CI,

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secret service. But then you're going to have agencies like

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the DEA, right they focus on drugs, but is also

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a major component of the drug trafficking world these days.

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So even the DA is going to have crypto cryptocurrency

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experts on their teams.

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And then you know there's going to be other agencies.

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Such as the SEC, the FTC that will also look

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into different scams.

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And then I mean stay in local PD. They're they're

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all over it.

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As well, because, like I said, if if you are

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being scammed, first thing you should do is I would

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encourage people to contact local PD so they get contacted

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all the time. They also know how to do many

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of the same things that we would do, right trying

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to take the identifiers that are given to them by

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the victim and try to trace that money to see

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where it went, to see if they can freeze the

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funds and try to get it back for the victim.

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So that.

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Segues right into my next question is what tools do

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you have as a law enforcement agent to down this

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money and to identify where it went.

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So thankfully we do have some really good tools. Primarily,

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I would say the biggest thing are going to be

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blockchain explorers, so if you're familiar with companies such as

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Chain Analysis or TRM labs, they make these tools that

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allow us to So, like I said, when you get

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an ATM receipt, it's going to have a wallet address

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on it. What we can do is plug that wallet

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address into these explorers and.

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It'll show us.

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You know what it'll show basically give us a picture

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of that wallet, and we're able to trace those funds

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to see where they're going.

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And then you know the biggest.

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Thing that it also does then is it gives us attribution,

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so it may go into a wallet and then get

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sent to binance. And if that's the case, then you

393
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know us as law enforcement. Another tool that we have

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is subpoena power, So if we have an open investigation,

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we can issue a subpoena to finance to have them

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