March 18, 2025

Pig Butchering Scam & Persuasive Psychological Techniques

Pig Butchering Scam & Persuasive Psychological Techniques

Joyce talks with Dr. Martina Dove about Pig Butchering Scam and persuasive psychological techniques. Learn how scammers conversations elicit commitment and consistency by using social norms and visceral influence to their advantage.
Dr. Martina Dove...

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Season 1

Joyce talks with Dr. Martina Dove about Pig Butchering Scam and persuasive psychological techniques. Learn how scammers conversations elicit commitment and consistency by using social norms and visceral influence to their advantage.
Dr. Martina Dove is on R.O.S.E.'s Advisory Board and is passionate researcher with a background in psychology and specific expertise in social engineering, scam techniques, persuasion, and individual characteristics that contribute to susceptibility to scams.

Let’s Talk About Scams is broadcast live Tuesdays at 8AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Let’s Talk About Scams TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

Let’s Talk About Scams Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Disclaimer: The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional / legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references; however, R.O.S.E. Resources / Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam.


WEBVTT

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This program is designed to provide general information with regards

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to the subject matters covered. This information is given with

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the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station

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are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling,

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professional service, or any advice.

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You should seek the services of.

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Competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas. The

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information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes

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only and is not a substie for individual professional legal advice.

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The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references. However,

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Rose Resources outreach to safeguard the elderly cannot guarantee that

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you will not fall victim to a scam. Let's talk

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about scams. It's the must listen show for anyone who

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wants to protect themselves and their loved ones from scams.

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Every Tuesday am Pacific time on kfour HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski,

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founder of Rose, and her guests will provide valuable insights

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and practical tips on how to recognize and protect yourself

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from scams. And now here is your host, Joyce Petrowski.

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All Right, welcome back, everybody to let's talk about scams.

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I'm your host, Joyce Petrowski, President of Rose Resources Outreach

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to Safeguard the Elderly. You can go to our website

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Roseadvocacy dot org and find more information more resources. You

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can sign up for our email and or mailed newsletter.

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You can also find our social media links. And you're

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going to want to click on the events tab. We

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have an awesome third annual Golfers for Senior Protection Tournament

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coming up in Phoenix at Arizona Grand on Friday, April eleventh.

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We are still looking for golfers, sponsors, donation items, and volunteers,

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so reach out if you need any more information on that.

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And now I want to get into our topic today.

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We're going to talk about pig butchering scams and psychological

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techniques that scammers use. And I'd like to introduce our guest,

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doctor Martina Dove.

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Hi.

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Hi everyone, good, how are you Martina?

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I'm good, I'm good. Nice to see you again and

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nice to be here.

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Thank you, Thank you. I appreciate you being here.

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So you.

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Wrote a case study, a white paper on scam techniques

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in pig butchering scams and so That's what I wanted

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to talk about today. So I guess let's start with

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what is a pig butchering scam? I'm finding a lot

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of people have not heard of that term.

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Yeah, so a pig butchering scam is a very clever

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spin off romance scams. It actually combines what used to

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be a financial type of scam, how how victims would

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typically be scammed in a financial you know, kind of

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like scams and frauds, and then it incorporated a Roman

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scam element. And what I mean by that there is,

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you know, in a typical romance cams a grooming component

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would last for many months, and this you know, serves

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to groom the victim to comply at some later stage.

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So it enhances trust, It enhances the emotional component, you

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build friendship, you know, even when there's no specific romantic

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element to it, there's a friendship building up and that

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obviously will lead to greater compliance. And so like these

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financial scams that used to be much quicker that would

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persuade people to invest, you know, like have now become

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a little bit more weaponized in terms of just building

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the trust upfront, which then pays off a late stay.

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Got it okay, and I just realized I forgot to

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ask you if you could introduce yourself and tell us

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how you became such an expert on these scams and

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senior scams in particular.

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Yeah, Like, I'm really a psychologist, you know, kind of

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by education, I studied psychology and then for my pH d,

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I really wanted to do something around how people, uh

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you know kind of you know, how people make decisions

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and what are influenced by And I was specifically interested

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in the Barnum effect, which is a cognitive bias. And

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a Barnum effect is something that happens to us where

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let's say there's a fake clairvoyant telling you your fortune.

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You know how you process that information that you get

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and typically you will get information that is very vague

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that can apply to anyone, but you're going to think

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that this is really true of you. So so I was

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really interested in Abantum effect, and I didn't quite know

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how to apply it to, you know, a problem in

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a society until I read the paper that talked about

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the psychological influences in phishing emails. And this is where

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I got really interested in fraud and I ended up

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doing a pH d around scams and house scams persuade,

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and also what makes people vulnerable to scams? So what

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are are factors and personality you know, points or you know,

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what kind of things about us make us vulnerable to

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You got it?

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And you actually wrote a book on it. Why don't

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you tell us a little bit about the book.

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Yeah, Like, when I finished my pH d, because it

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was a quite you know, like it was still a

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really novel arena and a kind of novel topic, and

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there was some literature on it, but it wasn't easily

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found that I had to piece together from other psychological literature.

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You know. What I wanted to do. I wanted to

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create a book so that it's really easy for people

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to read and find out everything that could make us

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vulnerable to fraud and also has commers persuade. So I

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kind of pulled all of my studies into the book

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and I've added to it some research on deception and

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how you know, like if a s commer is communicating

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something to us, what are some of the things that

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persuade in that communication? You know as well? And how

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to really think about, you know, things around fraud because

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people think that you know, this would happen to other

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people who are not smart, but I think it can

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happen to everyone, and really scammers, very some are very sophisticated,

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using very sophisticated techniques.

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Yeah. Absolutely.

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And the name of your book is The Psychology of Fraud,

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Scam and Persuasion Techniques.

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That's right.

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It's an awesome book.

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I have it.

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I've read it, I've gone back to it and looked

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at things at various different times. It's available on Amazon

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if anybody's interested in getting it. And I think a

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lot of people immediately go to the financial aspect when

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you're talking about scams, and we need to draw more

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attention to the psychological and emotional effects because if you

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can understand that, I think that's going to help you,

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in addition to a lot of the different protection tools

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right to be able to have less risk of falling victims.

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So let's get back to the pig butchering. So we

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know that that you said, that's a they've sort of

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weaponized the romance scam, and they're not in essence, you know,

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from start to finish in two to four hours on

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the phone with you, they're taking their time to go

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through a grooming process so they're still targeting the same

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as they would for any type of scam.

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Is that accurate?

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Because I've always said everybody's a target, right, scams don't.

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There's no intelligence component to it, no fund you know,

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if you have a lot of financial assets or don't.

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It's everybody's a target.

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So are scammers in essence looking for specific characteristics when

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they're trying to do this pig butchering scam?

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I don't think there are. I think, like whereas romance

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scams used to be very targeted to people maybe on

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dating sites or maybe people you know, there was a

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russianale behind. It's very difficult to study cameras as well,

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because I want to talk to you. Russianale behind the

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romance fraud was typically they would target let's say women

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or men at the certain age where they're likely to

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be divorced or where they're likely to be single. They

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would target dating sites where they know are looking for partners.

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So there was some kind of targeting, you know, like

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phishing emails less so they would be a cast white

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cast net. Some fishing emails are more targeted than others.

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You know, if the targeted the CEO of a company

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or somebody in a company to fish the company. But

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I think with the pig butchering scams, what's happening it's

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kind of you know, they're trying to cast the wider

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net and see what they catch. And you know, I

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say that because I've looked at several of these communications,

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and you know what's smart about them is that they

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adapt to the victim. So, for example, if a victim

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is receptive towards the more romantic aspect, the skop is

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going to play on that. If the victim isn't open

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to that, but it's open to let's say, receiving a

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financial advice, they will be playing up to that. So

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it's very adaptable scam that that, you know, I think

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starts with like a fake you know, a fake text

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but tending to be a wrong number and engaging you

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in conversation. It starts very friendly and then picks up

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the cues from the victim as to what they may

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need out of this conversation.

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Yeah, I can't you mentioned.

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You know A possible way it starts is the fake

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text right a wrong number. I can't tell you how

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many of those I've gotten where the text message comes

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through and it's like I'm looking forward to getting together tonight,

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and it's like, okay, I have no clue who this

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person is or you know, just I've been trying to

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call you and you know, can you whatever right? Or

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they even put a different they'll just put a name

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in there, right, Hey, Julie, how's it going, right? And

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it's like, okay, that's not me. It's a wrong number.

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And a lot of times you want to be nice

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and you want to respond back and go, I think

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you have the wrong number, but you can't do that

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because one that lets them know that that number is active, right,

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and there's somebody behind it. But then they're going to

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start with their techniques, start like the conversation right to

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drum up a conversation.

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Yeah, no, definitely. You know one thing that I would say,

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I think so much of our information has been hacked

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from legitimate sites, you know, and I think like when

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they're targeting you, they almost always know it is a

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live number of some sort. Okay, I think, like what

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this fake? You know, like I'm calling it to take

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it's a real text that arrives, but it's prettend it's

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a wrong number. You know, when you receive these texts.

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What I want to do is they want to engage

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you in a conversation, and they're playing on a very

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known persuasion technique, you know, like firing social norms, like

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what you've said. You want to be polite. You don't

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want somebody to be waiting somewhere thinking they contacted their friends.

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So you're going to respond. And then the key is

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to actually engage you in a conversation. So this camera

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may say, I'm really sorry, please forgive me. You know,

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I thought it was my friend. You're going to say, oh,

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don't worry about it. Then they're gonna say, so you

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know where you based you? You know, they engage you

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in this like really benign conversation. And that's another persuasion technique,

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because the more you engage in any kind of conversation,

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the harder is to stop replying. So you know, it's

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it's a non persuasion technique called you know, commitment and consistency.

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We want to be you know, really consistent. We are

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a nice person, so we don't want to not reply,

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and then we keep replying and then you know, like

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maybe they'll ask you a question, you'll reply politely, you'll

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wanna you know, kind of like cut the conversation, but

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they'll try and try and try, so it's it's it's

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a really clever way. It's a like originally it's a cast,

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you know, to cast a really wide net see what

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they catch. And then it starts from like small kind

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of conversation. Maybe that day you're going to exchange a

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few texts. The next day they're gonna text you again,

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and so on and so.

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Forth, right, because the more you engage in the conversation,

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the more comfortable sort of and committed right you are.

223
00:13:10.039 --> 00:13:12.559
And they're going to say thank you for letting me know,

224
00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:14.200
and you're going to be like, oh, you're welcome, not

225
00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:17.159
a problem, right. It just kind of going back and forth,

226
00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:22.720
and then before you know it, you're finding personal information

227
00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:25.879
out about this person and they're asking you questions and right,

228
00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:28.840
just to kind of get you in deeper and deeper.

229
00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:33.679
True, And you know, like how these conversations start that

230
00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:37.039
they start usually they're about you, so you want to,

231
00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:40.600
like you tell them about you. You know, you feel

232
00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:43.440
like this person is just like interested in me, and

233
00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:46.639
that kind of builds a bit of a bond. And

234
00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:50.679
then they'll typically start to mimic what you're telling them.

235
00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:54.240
So if you're telling them, you know, let's say I'm divorced,

236
00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:56.759
I have, you know, one child, it's really difficult to

237
00:13:56.840 --> 00:14:00.480
raise the you know children, they'll say, oh, yeah, me too,

238
00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:03.480
like I'm finding it hard, you know. So a lot

239
00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:07.639
of the time they will mimic who you are. And

240
00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:12.720
that's another persuasion technique called similarity. You praying okay, something

241
00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:16.720
that like you're finding something in common, right, and we

242
00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:19.600
like people that have something in common with us. We

243
00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:22.679
bond quicker with people that we find we have something

244
00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:27.039
that is this, you know, similar finding staff levels, or

245
00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:30.000
we have things in common we can talk about. So,

246
00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:34.480
you know, like sometimes when when people see these conversations,

247
00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:38.200
and especially these things are happening to the friends and family,

248
00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:41.639
and they can't understand why somebody would engage in that.

249
00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:45.080
There are a lot of persuasion techniques that are layered

250
00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:48.759
one upon another, you know, even when it's just this

251
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:50.519
is a random conversation.

252
00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:53.320
Right, right, One of the things you mentioned in the

253
00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:56.039
case study is controlling the conversation.

254
00:14:56.960 --> 00:14:59.440
So is explain that a little bit more.

255
00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:03.559
I kind of look at that as and I probably

256
00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:06.960
am just on the surface of this is that if

257
00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:11.600
you fail to reply or you know, it's been a

258
00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:14.200
day or something like that, that they're going to keep

259
00:15:14.919 --> 00:15:17.600
texting you to keep you in that conversation.

260
00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.320
I mean, yes or no. That's one component of it.

261
00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:23.360
But one of the things that I've noticed when I

262
00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:27.080
read like a year's worth of you know, WhatsApp messages

263
00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:31.759
back and forth, if you don't even look at what's

264
00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:35.080
being said, you're just looking at how the conversation flows

265
00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:38.240
between two people. In the beginning, this camera is the

266
00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:43.039
one that's initiating very frequent conversations. Several times a day.

267
00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:46.240
They will switch you to what's up where you know,

268
00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:48.720
maybe they'll change your phone numbers so that if they're

269
00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:51.919
abroad it's cheaper for them to do that, or more

270
00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:55.960
people can actually use that. You know, like I'm pretty

271
00:15:55.960 --> 00:16:00.120
sure in these organized crimes, you know, you need you're

272
00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:02.960
not just talking to one person. You're talking you know,

273
00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:06.679
somebody is managing your profile right about you, and they're

274
00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.720
very smart. They keep a profile on you today. They

275
00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:10.600
know exactly what you told them. And I know that

276
00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:13.679
because I engage in a conversation just to see and

277
00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:16.840
I tested them. You know, in the nation, I gave them.

278
00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:21.519
So basically in the beginning, the the you know, they

279
00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.399
initiate a lot of this conversation and it's really mundane.

280
00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:27.080
It's about how's your day going, what do you have

281
00:16:27.159 --> 00:16:29.200
for lunch? Where did you you know? What did you

282
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:33.600
do today? It's very pleasant, it's very easy going, it's

283
00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:38.440
very lighthearted, and it's very frequent. And there's another, you know,

284
00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:43.360
persuasion technique because over the electronic communication we open up

285
00:16:43.399 --> 00:16:47.240
way too quickly, like we wouldn't you know, first of all,

286
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.320
the comma has access to you several times a day.

287
00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:53.240
This wouldn't happen in real life. You just would be

288
00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:57.080
going out with somebody five, six, seven, ten twenty times

289
00:16:57.080 --> 00:16:59.440
a day, right, Like you wouldn't be following them twenty

290
00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:02.080
times a day within something is wrong, but the text

291
00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:07.759
right serves as that it reinforces the you know, the

292
00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:10.640
feeling as if you've known this person for longer. Right,

293
00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:13.839
So that makes sense, Yes, it makes sense. So like

294
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:17.759
these conversations are very frequent, they initiated by this comer

295
00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:21.359
and then as they go along, you know, maybe a

296
00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:25.160
month has gone by, they now starting to introduce the

297
00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:28.240
idea of investment. Maybe you don't want to be investing

298
00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:30.039
and you don't know why somebody is talking to you

299
00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:33.240
about investing in crypto because you've never done anything like it.

300
00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:36.079
This is where this comer kind of like it's still

301
00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:39.599
priming you. They're just talking about maybe they wins and

302
00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:42.519
how much they want on, you know, investing in crypto

303
00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:46.119
or investing in some of the stuff. And the more

304
00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:51.559
you don't engage in that conversation, the more likely it

305
00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:53.799
is that this com is going to now start to

306
00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:58.440
withdraw their attention, like their attention on you, right that

307
00:17:58.519 --> 00:18:01.200
you you know this time, you you've gotten used to

308
00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:04.720
having this contact for months, right, and this is your friend,

309
00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:07.160
the contact through the day, and you're going to miss

310
00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:08.680
it if it's gone exactly.

311
00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:11.000
You're looking forward to it exactly.

312
00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:15.160
And scummer suddenly starts taking that away from you. Right.

313
00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:18.039
So when they do get in contact, it's very quick,

314
00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:22.799
very quickly they'll talk about investment. If you don't start

315
00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:25.680
talking about investment, the scummer will say, hey, I need

316
00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:28.000
to go, you know, I'm gonna have lunch and go

317
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:33.160
to work, and they'll withdraw and pretty quickly the conversation

318
00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:38.680
that goes on starts to only be about investments. Otherwise

319
00:18:39.240 --> 00:18:42.440
withdraw themselves. So if you think about, like, you know,

320
00:18:43.160 --> 00:18:45.559
I kind of always like to say to people, remember

321
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:48.559
when you're you know, like, maybe you start going out

322
00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:50.720
with somebody and they're very attentive to you, and you

323
00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:54.200
get used to that, and suddenly they're not as attentive,

324
00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:57.319
they don't call you anymore. You start being anxious.

325
00:18:56.960 --> 00:18:59.720
Right, and exactly, yes, that's the goal.

326
00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:02.720
That's the goal. It's the goal is to make you

327
00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:06.519
anxious so that then you're persuaded to talk about investment,

328
00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:08.480
to keep that conversation going.

329
00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:09.279
Got it.

330
00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:12.480
Once you start talking about investment, it becomes more normal

331
00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:16.160
to you to start thinking about investment, to start like

332
00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:19.519
thinking you could maybe invest, because now you're afraid that

333
00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:22.920
if you don't invest, you will lose this friendship or

334
00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:26.079
this relationship you build it you're built with this person

335
00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:30.079
you're building. And then pretty soon if you're still not

336
00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:35.359
going with investment, sometimes the scummer then turns nasty. Sometimes

337
00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:37.680
they'll just drop if they see that you're not going

338
00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:40.319
to be a victim. You know, my scamma dropped me

339
00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:42.960
because I just didn't have the time to communicate several

340
00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:47.839
times a day. Sometimes the scammer will turn you know,

341
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:53.319
quite negative. They'll start crating you that you another person

342
00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:57.839
of your word or you know, case study, the victim

343
00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:01.759
you know, had to defend them selves right like, you know,

344
00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:04.200
saying like I do, but I just want to be cautious.

345
00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:07.319
I don't want to invest five hundred thousands straight away, right,

346
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.799
It's not that I'm not proactive or you know. So

347
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:14.240
then the situation turns more negative and that will cause

348
00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:17.519
more anxiety, and then the victim may just think, oh, look,

349
00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:19.240
I'm just going to invest because I want to stop

350
00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:23.200
this negativity now. Right, Not only are they not communicating

351
00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:26.160
like they used to, now it's really negative and the

352
00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:28.680
relationship has turned bad and they just want to go

353
00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:31.960
to that good place you know.

354
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:38.160
They are. That's very sophisticated, very sophistic right.

355
00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:41.480
They're getting you to go in through a lot of

356
00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:45.480
different ups and downs and a lot of different emotions. Yes, right,

357
00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:51.599
because right when someone starts turning things negative, and it

358
00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:55.720
is an inference on us, right, your first tendency is

359
00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:59.240
to defend yourself, right you can, if you stopped and

360
00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:02.200
thought about it, you might think, well, who is this

361
00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:05.440
person really and what does it matter to me? If

362
00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:08.319
they think that I'm not a person of my word,

363
00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:12.160
I don't even know them, right, You're just automatically go

364
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:14.039
to what I have to defend myself.

365
00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:17.240
Yes, right, you go to that. And one thing I

366
00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:20.720
would also say, which is really important, you go to

367
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:24.319
that defense thing. But also you don't want to disappoint them, right,

368
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:27.559
But maybe in the beginning they got you to tell,

369
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:30.200
you know, tell them what kind of person you are,

370
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:32.599
so they're gonna then throw that back in your face

371
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:35.640
that they'll say, well, you told me or this kind

372
00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:37.559
of a person, and now you're showing me this. And

373
00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:40.599
then again that's commitment and consistency. We want to be

374
00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:44.119
consistent with what we say. People who are saying one

375
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:46.480
thing but behaving in a different way are seen as

376
00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:50.559
inconsistent and unstable. You know, we don't like people to

377
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:54.680
be inconsistent. Right. And another thing that I've also noticed,

378
00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:58.880
you know happens a lot too, is you know, like

379
00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:01.880
at some point and the victim will be worn down.

380
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:06.400
And you know, if you think about how, let's say somebody,

381
00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:10.279
you know, a police is interrogating a suspect. All right, yes,

382
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:14.119
I've seen that on TV exactly done over time, they'll

383
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:17.519
ask repeated questions over and over. They'll maybe put a

384
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:20.039
little bit of blame. Well, you told me this, now

385
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:23.160
you're telling me this. And you know, the whole point

386
00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:27.400
of like just gas lighting and going around in circles

387
00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:30.680
and kind of like repeating these things is to wear

388
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:33.839
the victim out. And in psychology that's kind of called

389
00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:38.799
ego depletion. Right after hours and hours of this, you

390
00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:41.400
are going to be depleted, and you'll you're more likely

391
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:44.960
to just comply, right, It's more likely to just do

392
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:47.759
what they want because you just want to get this

393
00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:48.240
over with.

394
00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.279
You know that I talked to a victim and it

395
00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:54.680
wasn't of a pig butchering scam. It was of one

396
00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:58.000
of a tech support where they were putting money into

397
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.400
her account, the whole refund thing, and then it was

398
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.240
you know, they put too many zeros and all that stuff.

399
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:07.319
And she made a comment she said, it was as

400
00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:12.200
if they took over my brain. Is that kind of

401
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:16.599
the same things they're trying to control how you think

402
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:17.079
and act?

403
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:19.960
Yeah, Like, I think he really depends on a scam,

404
00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:23.799
and it depends on what they are doing. But yeah, definitely,

405
00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:27.880
I think you know, there there are tons of difference

406
00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:31.359
scamps playing upon different things. You know, so like I

407
00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:34.839
think another thing that people need to understand. Just because

408
00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:36.839
you wouldn't fall for this scamp, you may fall for

409
00:23:36.920 --> 00:23:41.240
another scam that's true, more closer to who you are

410
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:44.480
and what you're doing in life right now, so you know,

411
00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:49.400
situational exactly. Definitely, they you know, I think in a

412
00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:52.119
lot of these frauds, and especially with this like like

413
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:56.920
support the fhear, right, like when they evoke these strong

414
00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:01.640
emotions such as fear, such as like sexual you know, attraction,

415
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:05.559
or strong emotions of love. You know, any kind of

416
00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:09.039
strong emotion. Fear is very potent. One fear is a

417
00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:12.200
primal thing. That is, you go into fight or.

418
00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:14.720
Flight mode exactly, fight or flying.

419
00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:17.920
Exactly, and you don't think clearly. And what's important to

420
00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:22.640
realize that under such strong visceral influence, that strong kind

421
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:25.799
of emotion, whether it be panic, fear, greed or whatever,

422
00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:31.119
we don't recall advice that we are conscious of. We

423
00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:34.960
cannot recall a lot of these rational things that we know,

424
00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:38.799
so we don't make decisions that we would make in

425
00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:43.039
a cold light of the day, right And this is why,

426
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:46.119
you know, like the in insight is twenty twenty. Right.

427
00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:50.000
You know, it's easy to give advice when you're in

428
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:52.519
a rational state, but not so easy to actually follow

429
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:55.240
that same advice when you're in this like what some

430
00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:59.720
called hot state. Right, Like you're you know, you're kind

431
00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:03.079
of you don't know what you're doing, you're making quick decisions.

432
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:05.440
You just want to get out of these uncomfortable situation, right.

433
00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:07.759
And that's the same in the pig butchering.

434
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:08.039
Right.

435
00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:09.200
They're getting you anxious.

436
00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:12.640
They're going on your anxiety and your need to want

437
00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:16.680
to defend yourself, and and that's all emotion too, right,

438
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:20.519
because you're not as well, you know, thinking rationally, you

439
00:25:20.599 --> 00:25:22.920
might think, well, I don't really even know this person,

440
00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:24.960
and what do I care what they think of me? Right?

441
00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:29.240
You just yeah, So that that's interesting. And you know

442
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:32.319
a lot of a lot of the scams, like we

443
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:35.359
talked about in the beginning, are urgent, right from the

444
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:38.440
time you engage to when you give the money. It's

445
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:42.079
a matter of hours. But like with the romance scam

446
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:47.640
and then this pig butchering one, there's no like set

447
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:51.240
time frame. It's kind of all based on the conversation

448
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:59.440
until they feel they've got you in basically under their control.

449
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:02.160
And then they start bringing all of this out. And

450
00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:08.400
I think you mentioned h you mentioned before about they

451
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:11.759
have a profile on you, but you probably not even

452
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:17.559
talking to the same person all of the time. That's

453
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:20.960
I think that's also a misconception. I think a lot

454
00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:23.880
of people think, you know, that the scams are just

455
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:27.160
one individual sitting there, you know, trying to scam them

456
00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:30.359
and them only, but they probably have ten or twenty

457
00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:33.799
other people they're engaging with and trying to get them

458
00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:35.799
to do this investment as well.

459
00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:37.640
And it's a big.

460
00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:42.359
Like call center type thing, right with multiple people and

461
00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:46.720
and so. And I'm sure that they use whatever you

462
00:26:46.759 --> 00:26:48.759
call it where you change your voice, so no matter

463
00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:51.359
who's talking to you, it's always the same voice.

464
00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:56.240
WoT wouldn't that wouldn't that Do you think.

465
00:26:56.079 --> 00:26:58.759
Somebody would realize that if all of a sudden it

466
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:00.440
was a different voice they were talking to.

467
00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:04.240
So, like, it depends what you mean by voice, like

468
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:08.039
if you mean by like a way of speaking through text,

469
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:10.799
because a lot of these coms are just through text.

470
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:15.000
So scam that's true. Yeah, so SMA, that's true. Yeah,

471
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:19.119
we were result done through text, right, but now with AI,

472
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:23.519
they can easily fake all of that. Sometimes they record

473
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:27.960
voice messages, so they'll record voice message and send you

474
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.240
a voice message and say, hey, I can't talk now,

475
00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:33.640
but he's a voice message, you know, so you almost

476
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:38.160
like talking on the phone. But I'm like, I have caught,

477
00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:40.359
you know, when I try to communicate with the CAMMA,

478
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.640
just to see how it evolves. One of the things

479
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:45.839
that I've noticed is that, and I was testing.

480
00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:48.160
Them, you know, I would get angry if a SCAMA

481
00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:51.599
would like start talking about investment. I would say, look,

482
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:53.960
I don't know why you're talking about that now, because

483
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:55.839
like I have my own drama at home, and like

484
00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:58.319
I don't want to talk about it. I would get angry.

485
00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:02.920
And then suddenly somebody else would come and text much

486
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:06.079
kind of things and much more sophisticated, and the English

487
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:11.680
was better. So I do think that there are handlers, right,

488
00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:15.480
And this is typical you know, in a you know,

489
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:19.480
in the like old fashioned financials calms, usually you would

490
00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:21.559
have a person who would contact you over the phone

491
00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:24.319
and handle you right like this would be the seller

492
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:27.480
as somebody to invest in this kind of share, this

493
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:29.960
kind of business, whatever it was, and then you get

494
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.920
passed to somebody else, and then when you start asking

495
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:36.680
questions and you are suspicious, they don't want to be detected.

496
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:40.160
So now you get put in touch with somebody who's smarter,

497
00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:43.359
who will appease you, who becomes your friend, becomes how

498
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:45.960
difficult to report because now you're friends with this person.

499
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:49.279
That person is just there to manage you, right, And

500
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:52.519
so I think like there are there is like I

501
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:55.039
don't know, this is kind of what I've noticed and

502
00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:57.640
what I think happens, but I think there is some

503
00:28:57.799 --> 00:28:59.599
degree of that when they think they're going to lose

504
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:03.920
a victim, Uh, maybe it gets escalated to somebody who

505
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:07.160
is better at handling, you know, because because you need

506
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:09.559
to think about it this way, right, for like months

507
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:11.839
and months and months, you're just carrying on really frequent,

508
00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:16.279
mundane conversations. Right, Like if I'm let's say, a CEO

509
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:21.240
of scamming operations, my time is limited. I'm super good,

510
00:29:21.319 --> 00:29:23.720
but like my time is limited, right, I think like

511
00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:27.000
there's a lot that they outsourced to people who are

512
00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:30.720
just carrying on several conversations. And these people, like one

513
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:33.200
thing that I want to also highlight, these people are

514
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:35.839
also scammed a lot of the times. These people are

515
00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:40.400
you know, human trafficking victims that have applied to work

516
00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:44.240
in it and you know, get the passports taken away.

517
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:47.920
And there's a great article by Pro PUBLICA. They did

518
00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:52.880
a really good investigative journalist piece on you know the

519
00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:58.240
scam you know, you know really kind of organized crime

520
00:29:58.759 --> 00:30:02.400
gangs that actually, you know, the people who are texting

521
00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:04.680
you are also victims in some.

522
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:07.799
Way, right, right, Yeah, I've I've heard about that.

523
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:10.000
I'm going to have to find that Pro public article

524
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:13.880
and read through that because it is interesting. Right, A

525
00:30:13.880 --> 00:30:16.319
lot of times I think we think people are choosing

526
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:21.319
to do this and and uh, they're not. They're being

527
00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:24.720
it's forced labor. And actually, I don't know if I

528
00:30:24.759 --> 00:30:28.160
was reading an article or or something or listening to

529
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:34.200
maybe watching a video where it, uh, the scammer just

530
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:38.680
broke down and said, you know, yeah, you know, I'm

531
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:41.000
I don't want to do this, I'm being forced to

532
00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:45.160
do this, right and and and was apologetic and stuff

533
00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:45.440
like that.

534
00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:50.000
So No, definitely, that's you know, that's a big problem

535
00:30:50.119 --> 00:30:52.160
because there's a lot of money. Right, Like when you

536
00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:56.680
think about any scams that you know, like you mentioned

537
00:30:56.680 --> 00:31:00.519
something earlier that was really interesting that you know this urgency,

538
00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:03.839
but there's no urgency here. Well, there are two different scams, right.

539
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.680
Urgency typically happens with like fishing scams or like quick scams,

540
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:10.160
where you're asking a victim to make a decision in

541
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:13.839
a moment. And there's a reason for that because when

542
00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:17.160
you evoke a visceral influence such as fear, such as

543
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:21.480
strong emotion or excitement let's say free price, lottery wains

544
00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:27.000
or whatever, these feelings are fleeting, your rationality will return.

545
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:28.039
Very quickly, very quickly.

546
00:31:28.519 --> 00:31:32.000
So they have to use urgency too, so that you

547
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:35.160
make a decision while you're still under this visceral influence,

548
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:39.920
whereas like big butchering scams or long term romance camps,

549
00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:44.279
they are actually using a different technique. It's not about

550
00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:48.519
evoking these quick things. It's about you gaining trust of

551
00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:51.720
the victim so that the victim thinks you have the

552
00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:56.160
best interest at heart, and they trust you and they

553
00:31:56.200 --> 00:31:59.079
want to listen to you, and then you're manipulating them.

554
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:01.039
If they don't want to come apply on their own,

555
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:05.240
there's threats or there's like you know, like what I said,

556
00:32:05.319 --> 00:32:08.079
they withdraw from the conversation. So even though they didn't

557
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:10.640
tell you, well, if you don't invest, I'm gonna stop

558
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:13.839
talking to you. They are telling you this in a

559
00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:17.319
less obvious way right by going there.

560
00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:20.759
So that's the I think the process is called grooming.

561
00:32:21.319 --> 00:32:26.000
That they're in essence grooming you your brain to feel

562
00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:28.279
and to act in a certain way. And like you said,

563
00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:31.880
it's that trust, that absolute trust. You're not talking to

564
00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:33.119
anybody else about this.

565
00:32:33.799 --> 00:32:37.559
You only believe what they're telling you.

566
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:42.400
And you know, I've talked to quite a few family

567
00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:47.640
members of people that were actively involved in a romance scam,

568
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:51.640
you know, whether it went into the pig butchering or not,

569
00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:54.319
but they had just presented it as a romance scam,

570
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:57.559
and they're just at their wits end.

571
00:32:57.759 --> 00:32:58.000
You know.

572
00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:01.119
They've tried talking to them about it, explaining it. They've

573
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:04.400
had the police over to talk to them, and they're

574
00:33:04.519 --> 00:33:07.759
just they don't believe it. This person is who they are,

575
00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:13.000
they have this relationship, they trust them wholeheartedly, and you know,

576
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:17.640
it's sad that it ends up ruining family relationships. And

577
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:21.079
they've said, you know, what can I do? Is there

578
00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:24.279
anything else I can do to help to break through

579
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:27.359
that trust? Do you have any suggestions with that?

580
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:30.799
Yeah, I think, you know, one thing that we do

581
00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:34.279
as humans and everybody's guilty of that. We like to

582
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:36.759
be preachy and give advice.

583
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:39.119
Whether whether it's asked for or not.

584
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:42.799
And I think a lot of the times, you know,

585
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.440
like I said, when you're in this rational state, you

586
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:47.440
can see all of the warning signs, you can see

587
00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:51.160
all of the problems, right. And you know, I often

588
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.519
say to people, remember the time when you know, you

589
00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:57.000
were giving your friend advice when they were seeing a

590
00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:00.519
person that wasn't good for them and they weren't listening.

591
00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:03.000
And then there were times when that same friend was

592
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:05.680
giving you the same advice when you were saying, you know.

593
00:34:06.119 --> 00:34:09.239
So I think it's it's like it's human for us to,

594
00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:13.400
you know, kind of like be rational sometimes, but we

595
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:17.239
forget that, you know, what was difficult for us in

596
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:21.840
that irrational state, it's also difficult for somebody else, right,

597
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:25.559
And like you mentioned, you know, the comer kind of

598
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:27.719
like tells them, you know, and they believe everything the

599
00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:31.320
scummer is saying. Again, you have to understand, Scummer didn't

600
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:34.280
just tell them don't trust your family. In one text,

601
00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:40.239
this was subliminally given to you by the scummer over

602
00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:43.480
a course of months. Right at first, it will be

603
00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:47.039
something like, well, you know, you know, I know I

604
00:34:47.079 --> 00:34:50.119
love you, but you know, like most people wouldn't understand

605
00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:53.280
why we can fall in love this quickly. You know,

606
00:34:53.320 --> 00:34:55.440
I know I was talking to my family, and my

607
00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:59.000
family didn't understand. You're probably you know, your family probably

608
00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:01.800
wouldn't understand either, But I know that I want to

609
00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:04.679
spend my life with you. You know. So by the

610
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:09.239
time the family is intervened, this comer has already prepared

611
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:12.079
the victim that this is coming.

612
00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:14.199
Yeah, that that's true, right.

613
00:35:14.599 --> 00:35:17.639
Your family's not going to understand exactly right, They're going

614
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:20.440
to have all these questions, and they very well are

615
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:23.239
going to be able to anticipate the questions, and they're

616
00:35:23.239 --> 00:35:25.440
already going to have given answers yes, right.

617
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:28.079
And I think one of the things that people make

618
00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:31.679
really uh, you know, one miss you know, one mistake

619
00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:33.920
that people make, and I see a lot of fraud

620
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:38.239
prevention specialists do that. They come across very authoritarian, so

621
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:40.639
they're like, don't panic, why would you do this, don't

622
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:45.079
click this, stop sending money, you know, like those are

623
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:47.840
all things like that are very simplistic. Just because you

624
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:50.840
tell somebody not to do something you know it's not

625
00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:51.400
going to make.

626
00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:53.400
It doesn't mean they're going to do it exactly right.

627
00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:55.840
So I think like there needs to be more empathy,

628
00:35:56.039 --> 00:35:59.000
you know, coming from the place of empathy, rather than

629
00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:04.159
you know, giving advice. So asking questions like what's great

630
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:07.679
about this relationship, Like tell me, what do you see

631
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:10.800
in this person? What are they giving you? You know,

632
00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:13.440
Like I think sometimes you know, you need to think

633
00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:18.119
about it as well in terms of like almost like psychotherapy.

634
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:21.199
Right when you go to a psychotherapist, they don't talk.

635
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:25.360
They may ask a question and you will talk and

636
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:29.760
they listen and they listen. But through that from asking

637
00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:33.599
a question and you telling them, you are also listening

638
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:36.800
to yourself and that is the quickest way to realize

639
00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:40.079
something it's not. You know, there's a stubbornness in us.

640
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:42.719
We don't like to listen to advice, right, like, and

641
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:47.880
so it's it's kind of really difficult. I would say,

642
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:50.599
it's very difficult. But I think more empathy is needed

643
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:53.559
when you when you're handling your family members. And I

644
00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:55.800
would also say this too. A lot of the times

645
00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:58.320
when this is happening to elderly people, there may be

646
00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:02.679
other issues at place such as you know, early onset

647
00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:07.639
of dementia or some kind of cognitive problems that make

648
00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:11.039
them difficult to reason, or make them more vulnerable to threats,

649
00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:15.079
or make them more vulnerable to manipulation that I think

650
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:19.400
perhaps needs like medical interventional some.

651
00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:22.440
Sort to have some sort of testing run and stuff

652
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:22.760
like that.

653
00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:25.920
Right, Yeah, Like, you know, I'm not saying that everybody,

654
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:30.400
because like they are perfectly fine, fully functioning adults. Engaging

655
00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:33.559
in scams over and over sometimes is a choice, you know,

656
00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:36.559
and sometimes you're not going to be able to persuade them,

657
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:37.000
you know.

658
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:44.039
Yeah, yeah, I've you know, in my personal experience, right,

659
00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:47.559
you know, with the romance scam with a loved one.

660
00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:52.880
You know, I immediately got upset and angry, and it

661
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:55.440
wasn't geared towards my loved one. It was geared towards

662
00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:58.320
the scammer, right, It was how could you do this?

663
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:01.400
You know, how could you manipul late you know, someone

664
00:38:01.519 --> 00:38:04.280
like this that was grieving the loss of their spouse

665
00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:08.719
and all of this, But that comes across to your

666
00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:12.800
loved one, Yes, I think is that while you're saying

667
00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:15.920
you're not angry at them, you're angry at the situation.

668
00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:19.440
But they are involved in the situation, so it all

669
00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:23.039
comes back of as then they're angry with me, and

670
00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:24.960
they're going to be less apt to want to talk

671
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:28.000
about it, to want to give you information about it.

672
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:34.199
But yeah, you mentioned asking questions, right, that's a great

673
00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:39.239
way to get them to think in that phrase you

674
00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:42.880
were given one mouth and two ears, right, makes sense

675
00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:46.000
is ask the question and then just sit back and listen.

676
00:38:46.519 --> 00:38:48.920
Because one of the things you know, we tell people,

677
00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:51.880
like in our three top tips we give them for scams,

678
00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:56.159
is to make sure you have a trusted person that

679
00:38:56.199 --> 00:39:00.000
you can talk to before you act on anything, because

680
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:05.960
sometimes when you hear yourself say it out loud, your

681
00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:08.760
brain switches and all of a sudden, you're going that

682
00:39:08.800 --> 00:39:13.199
doesn't make sense, and you kind of figure it out, right,

683
00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:15.599
I think your brain goes into that rational thinking. But

684
00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:19.079
other times you're just really in that emotional state and

685
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:22.679
it takes your trusted person to start asking questions and

686
00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:24.719
to kind of help you navigate through it.

687
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:27.760
No, definitely, And one thing you said, you know, like

688
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:30.400
when you know you had anchor towards this camera, and

689
00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:33.559
that comes across then as if you're angry towards to family, member.

690
00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:36.800
You also need to think about, like this person has

691
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:40.679
built trust and love in, you know, in your family member.

692
00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:44.320
So now you're criticizing the loved one to you this

693
00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:46.880
this is a nobody, right, This is somebody that was

694
00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:51.000
the Atlantic or whatever. They telling the person they are

695
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:54.159
currently residing and they can't meet. But like to your

696
00:39:54.159 --> 00:39:57.280
loved one, this is a person that you know, the

697
00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:00.400
plant future with and they picture the few you're in.

698
00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:03.039
So you're criticizing somebody.

699
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:06.800
They love, right, So sure the same thing, the same.

700
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:10.440
Love you have for your family member that person has

701
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:13.760
for this comma in that moment, right, it makes sense.

702
00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:18.800
This is howscomers really weaponize, like what we hold dear

703
00:40:19.159 --> 00:40:23.639
against us, right, It's like it's really sinister. So I think, like,

704
00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:26.320
you know, this is where I think, you know, coming

705
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:31.400
with that authoritarian uh you know, kind of like a

706
00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:36.519
demeanor actually makes it worse, you know, and reinforces what

707
00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:40.039
a coma was telling them that you're not going to understand.

708
00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:42.920
Right, you know, right, yeah, you know I I And

709
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:44.519
that's one of the things I try to talk to

710
00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:48.639
people about is you know, don't go about it in

711
00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:52.639
a negative way, like you know, don't transfer money don't

712
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:55.360
put money into a crypto machine, don't click on that link,

713
00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:57.639
don't do this, I said at some point, And I

714
00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:00.480
think it's going to happen pretty quickly. You're life and

715
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:03.079
their mind is going to go. I feel like I'm

716
00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:07.199
in kindergarten again. I've been there, done that. I'm an adult.

717
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:10.079
I can make my own They're gonna get very defensive.

718
00:41:10.280 --> 00:41:13.280
I can make my own decisions, right, And when when

719
00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:15.519
you come back at it, when you come back you're

720
00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:17.920
not meaning to be negative, but just the words that

721
00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:20.280
you're using, that don't and the don't and the don't

722
00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:23.039
and the don't kind of sounds like being in kindergarten

723
00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:25.920
right when you're trying to learn or preschool all of

724
00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:29.079
those social norms and and things like that.

725
00:41:29.599 --> 00:41:32.159
And even then, you know, as a child, you didn't

726
00:41:32.199 --> 00:41:38.320
listen exactly, you know, like like people will want to

727
00:41:38.360 --> 00:41:40.440
do the thing you tell them not to do, right,

728
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:42.639
Like they'll be like why why can't they do it?

729
00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:45.599
You know? And so a lot of these advice as

730
00:41:45.639 --> 00:41:50.199
well happens, you know, like I think people are unable

731
00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:54.159
to explain why or unable to reason it, and they

732
00:41:54.280 --> 00:41:56.800
just know it's wrong, right, you know, And and so

733
00:41:57.480 --> 00:42:00.320
i'd say, you know, this is why I say any

734
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:04.760
prevention is better than intervention, you know, because it's really

735
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:10.000
difficult to intervene, especially in these comps that are very

736
00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:13.239
long lasting. You're not even going to know by the

737
00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:16.880
time you will intervene because you noticed something, this comma

738
00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:20.679
has already replaced the belief system and has accounted for

739
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:24.239
anything you're going to try and do. You know, yeah,

740
00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:29.719
but the trusted person, I think this is a preventative measure, right,

741
00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:34.880
Like you're printing that person as your guardian before something.

742
00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:38.280
Happens, exactly right, And that's the whole thing, is right,

743
00:42:38.679 --> 00:42:41.800
is having a plan, yes, and and and part of

744
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:45.000
the way you know, you can plan for you know

745
00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:47.440
a lot of different things, to get notified of things

746
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:50.440
somebody takes over your identity and right, so then you

747
00:42:50.440 --> 00:42:52.119
have a plan in place as to how you're going

748
00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:56.880
to navigate it. You know, if your credit card gets compromised,

749
00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:01.679
what you're going to do there. But just with some

750
00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:04.199
of the scams and the romance and the pig butchering

751
00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:07.400
and stuff like that are scams. You know that it's

752
00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:10.719
like what I think, what you can do to protect

753
00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:12.280
yourself and your loved.

754
00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:13.119
Ones, is.

755
00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:22.000
You put scam discussions in regular conversation, right, because you're

756
00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:25.400
as the loved one, You're going to be in contact

757
00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:29.800
with with your older loved one more and more frequently,

758
00:43:30.159 --> 00:43:33.079
whether it's on FaceTime, on the phone, in person, whatever.

759
00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:37.480
And you know, just google romance scam, you know, sign

760
00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:39.840
up for our newsletters and you can get information on

761
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:43.320
different scams or follow us on social media, and and

762
00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:46.320
just for five minutes, ten minutes, you know, start the

763
00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:49.480
conversation and say, wow, you know, did you see this

764
00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:53.079
article This lady lost five hundred thousand dollars she was

765
00:43:53.079 --> 00:43:55.719
in a romance scam and she had to sell her house,

766
00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:59.159
and you know, just start talking about it absolutely, right,

767
00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:03.559
because it I think what that does is the reoccurring

768
00:44:03.639 --> 00:44:10.400
conversations and non defensive, non threatening, you know, helps keep

769
00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:15.079
scam prevention top of mind. So when that older loved

770
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:18.119
one does get contacted, I think they would be more

771
00:44:18.199 --> 00:44:23.559
apt to then think scam if they if they've had

772
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:26.840
continual conversations you know about.

773
00:44:26.480 --> 00:44:30.880
It absolutely and you know, as humans we learn through stories, right.

774
00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:34.079
So this is why I say to people, you know,

775
00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:38.199
constantly share even if the police didn't do anything, Share

776
00:44:38.239 --> 00:44:41.880
your story. First of all, with stigmatizing being a victim

777
00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:44.880
of fraud, because I think, like you know, in this

778
00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:48.480
day and age, everybody has been defrauded. Probably maybe you're

779
00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:51.199
not aware of it. Maybe you're going to go fund

780
00:44:51.239 --> 00:44:53.800
me campaign that it was fraudulent and you don't even

781
00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:56.480
know it right exactly. So you know, I think like

782
00:44:56.679 --> 00:44:59.000
the more we talk about it, the more we normalize

783
00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:02.639
talking about it, the less likely it is that people

784
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:05.719
are going to fall for it because they recognize some

785
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:09.639
elements of it. So I think that's a really important aspect.

786
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:12.880
And I think definitely people think it wouldn't happen to

787
00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:16.360
them until it does, right, And so you know, like

788
00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:19.559
we the way we rationalize things. It's like, well, my

789
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:23.639
parents are like perfectly functional human beings. It wouldn't happen

790
00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:27.719
to them. My friends, you know, it doesn't matter, right,

791
00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:31.159
like everybody you know there. I know people with PhDs

792
00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:35.840
who fell scams. I know people who are CEOs who

793
00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:38.840
fell for scams. You know, I don't think there's a

794
00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:43.159
parallel between intelligence or but people think. People make these

795
00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:48.320
you know, parallels, and it gives them this like almost

796
00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:50.800
full sense of security that it would speak to them

797
00:45:51.079 --> 00:45:53.280
and I think we first thing we need to understand.

798
00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:58.639
It's like scams are like advertisements, right, Like some advertisements

799
00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:01.840
don't appeal to us. We we are you know, blind

800
00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:04.559
to them. But then there will be that one pair

801
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:08.199
of genes that looks really good and you'll click on. Right,

802
00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:10.639
it's like just to see what it's about and what

803
00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:14.000
you know. And the same miscams, right, Like it's just

804
00:46:14.039 --> 00:46:18.679
because you didn't you know, didn't do anything about these

805
00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:21.599
like hundred scams you got in your inbox because they

806
00:46:21.639 --> 00:46:25.599
weren't very convincing. Doesn't matter, Like, it doesn't mean you're

807
00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:27.400
not going to fall for something one.

808
00:46:27.559 --> 00:46:32.039
And one yes into your inbox. You might engage with

809
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:33.360
that one, right, just.

810
00:46:33.320 --> 00:46:37.920
Knowing what's happening, knowing how they persuade, understanding that it

811
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:41.320
can happen to anyone. So like you more on your guard.

812
00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:46.000
Oh yeah, I've talked to somebody who does the you know,

813
00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:50.000
the Google my business for other companies and so it's

814
00:46:50.039 --> 00:46:51.280
on Google all the time.

815
00:46:51.800 --> 00:46:53.119
And he fell for a scam.

816
00:46:54.079 --> 00:46:58.400
Right, somebody else that is one of the top level

817
00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:04.719
people in cybersecurity fell for something, right, it happens. Yeah,

818
00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:07.880
you know, we're not always at the top of our game.

819
00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:11.760
You know, we're not always sitting there just waiting to

820
00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:14.119
be scammed, so we can see it and not not

821
00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:18.239
fall for it. Right, scammers have an innate ability to

822
00:47:18.280 --> 00:47:19.480
catch us at the wrong time.

823
00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:23.840
I mean is that? And also some scams are so

824
00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:28.679
convincing there's not telling them from genuine stuff. Yeah, so

825
00:47:29.559 --> 00:47:32.760
you know, just accept that too. So you know, like

826
00:47:32.920 --> 00:47:36.320
if you if you look at the legitimate emails that

827
00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:39.480
your bank sense very similar to what's commerce is now saying,

828
00:47:39.800 --> 00:47:43.599
you know, and with the generative AI, they're just getting

829
00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:46.679
better and better in terms of spelling. They're no longer

830
00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:50.079
exactly grammar exactly. So it's going to be really difficult

831
00:47:50.119 --> 00:47:52.920
to tell. Emails can be spoofed. You know, we're told

832
00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:55.679
to hover all the things sure that will save you

833
00:47:55.719 --> 00:47:58.480
in let's say ninety five percent. In the five percent,

834
00:47:58.519 --> 00:48:02.159
whereas comer's very good, the email will be spoofed. He'll

835
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:03.599
look exactly the email.

836
00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:04.679
Don't look exactly right.

837
00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:07.519
Yeah, and same thing with phone numbers now, right, I

838
00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:13.039
had somebody on my advisory board has this app, and

839
00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:16.440
she has it because she need wants to know she's

840
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:18.920
in cybersecurity, how it works and all that stuff. But

841
00:48:19.239 --> 00:48:24.199
you can plug in the phone number that you're calling

842
00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:27.079
from and it doesn't have to be yours, and plug

843
00:48:27.079 --> 00:48:29.280
the phone number that you're calling too, and that's not

844
00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:33.480
right it Yeah, you know, she she did it with me,

845
00:48:33.639 --> 00:48:35.559
she called plugged my number in a call, but she

846
00:48:35.559 --> 00:48:38.519
plugged someone else's number in is who was coming from,

847
00:48:38.840 --> 00:48:41.199
and sure enough it came through with that person's name

848
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:44.880
and phone number, right, So phone numbers can be spoofed now.

849
00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:48.440
Right, And so yeah, yeah, so I think like this

850
00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:53.599
is why it's important to also just warned people house

851
00:48:53.679 --> 00:48:56.679
comes are going to make them feel anything that's that's

852
00:48:56.800 --> 00:49:00.960
making you panic, anything that's making you excite, anything that

853
00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:06.119
doesn't feel good, you know. I think just talk to

854
00:49:06.159 --> 00:49:08.800
somebody about it, you know, because I think like once

855
00:49:08.840 --> 00:49:11.599
you talk to somebody about it, like you can start

856
00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:14.559
rationalizing it, you know too, because I think a lot

857
00:49:14.559 --> 00:49:17.440
of the times in this long term comes, you get

858
00:49:17.480 --> 00:49:21.960
into that that movie, you know, and all you know

859
00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:25.400
is this, you know, And I think I think that's

860
00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:29.920
you know, that's kind of howscomer can actually get in

861
00:49:29.960 --> 00:49:33.599
and become the most important thing in your life. Right.

862
00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:36.159
So I think it's really important to share things with

863
00:49:36.360 --> 00:49:37.280
friends and family.

864
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:44.880
Absolutely at early stages. Yeah, absolutely, that's that's an awesome point. Wow,

865
00:49:44.920 --> 00:49:48.719
we've already gone through fifteen minutes. That went quick, but

866
00:49:48.840 --> 00:49:51.840
lots of great information and we're gonna I'll put the

867
00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:57.719
link to the case study that you did and the

868
00:49:57.760 --> 00:49:59.800
name of your book and everything in the in the

869
00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:03.400
oats when it comes out for that. But thank you

870
00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:06.519
so much Martina for taking the time sharing all of

871
00:50:06.519 --> 00:50:09.719
your information. I definitely want to have you back in

872
00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:12.559
the next couple months we can talk about another subject.

873
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:14.800
You're just a wealth of information.

874
00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:17.119
Sounds good. Thank you bying me?

875
00:50:17.480 --> 00:50:22.679
All right, thanks, bye bye. All right, guys, So that's

876
00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:25.719
a lot of information about pig butchering scams and different

877
00:50:25.719 --> 00:50:34.880
psychological techniques involved in it, commitment, consistency, just different vulnerability,

878
00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:39.960
persuasion techniques. Just remember the most important thing is to

879
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:42.800
be that trusted person in your loved one's life that

880
00:50:42.840 --> 00:50:45.480
they can come and talk to you about any situation

881
00:50:46.199 --> 00:50:50.519
and have regular conversations about different scams and different techniques

882
00:50:50.559 --> 00:50:54.440
and things like that in a non defensive, non threatening way.

883
00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:58.039
Just weave it into conversations just to keep scams top

884
00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:01.360
of mind. And don't get you're gonna want to get

885
00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:04.599
onto our website, Roseadvocacy dot org. You can find more

886
00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:09.119
resources there. You can at the bottom use the contact

887
00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:13.599
us button if you want to give us an idea

888
00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:15.400
of something you want us to talk about. We can

889
00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:17.559
see if we can get it in on a future episode.

890
00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:20.119
You'll find our social media links and you can also

891
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:25.119
sign up for our emailed and or mailed newsletter. And

892
00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:27.800
don't forget the events tab. We have our third annual

893
00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:32.159
golf tournament coming up on Friday, April eleventh at Arizona

894
00:51:32.239 --> 00:51:37.000
Grand Resort and Spa. It's a Friday morning. We're looking

895
00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:41.920
still looking for sponsors, golfers, volunteers, and auction items. So

896
00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:46.039
all the information's there. The link to the website is there.

897
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:49.639
Hit us up if you've got any any of these.

898
00:51:50.119 --> 00:51:53.320
We've loved to have you out for golf for sponsor

899
00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:57.800
and join us next week and let's talk about scams.

900
00:51:58.159 --> 00:52:00.000
Thank you.

901
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:03.079
Well, that's all the knowledge for this episode. Tune in

902
00:52:03.239 --> 00:52:07.320
every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on KFOURHD Radio

903
00:52:07.480 --> 00:52:11.559
at KFOURHD dot com as Joyce explores a variety of

904
00:52:11.679 --> 00:52:15.199
knowledge so you have the power to make scam protection

905
00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:19.400
your healthy habit. And until then, feel free to reach

906
00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:22.199
out to Joyce and let's talk about scams.