June 16, 2026

The FBI’s role in protecting victims from scams

The FBI’s role in protecting victims from scams
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Season 2

FBI victim specialists are part of Operation Level Up, a U.S. federal initiative launched in January 2024 to identify and notify victims of cryptocurrency investment fraud before they suffer further losses, with the goal of preventing hundreds of millions of dollars in damage. The program targets confidence-based scams such as “pig butchering” where scammers build trust online, lure victims into investing in fake cryptocurrency platforms, and then block withdrawals.

Let’s Talk About Scams is broadcast live Tuesdays at 8AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Let’s Talk About Scams TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

Let’s Talk About Scams Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Disclaimer: The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional / legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references; however, R.O.S.E. Resources / Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/let-s-talk-about-scams--6483699/support.

WEBVTT

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This program is designed to provide general information with regards

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to the subject matters covered. This information is given with

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the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station

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are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling,

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professional service, or any advice.

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You should seek the services.

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Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.

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The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational

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purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional

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00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:41.039
legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted

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sources and references. However, Rose Resources outreach to safeguard the

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elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to

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a scam. Let's talk about scams. It's the must listen

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show for anyone who wants to protect themselves and their

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loved ones from scams. Every Tuesday am Pacific time on

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K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose, and

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her guests will provide valuable insights and practical tips on

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how to recognize and protect yourself from scams. And now

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here is your host, Joyce Petrowski. Hi, I'm David staying

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active mentally, thing chess.

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Those are all very important things. I'm seventy two, but

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I'm going to keep on learning.

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I'm going to keep on moving.

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I'm gonna keep on living my life. Health care for

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David's next move.

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Learn more at ar twelve health dot com. Good morning, everybody.

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My name is Brian Watson, community Outreach specialist for Rose

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Resources Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly, and today I am

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filling in for Joyce Petrowski. She will be back next week.

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And this week we have a guest. Her name is

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mari Sala Sabalis with the FBI, and we are going

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to learn what the FBI does in terms of preventing

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people from getting scammed, especially from older adults, because that's

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our focus here at at ROSE, and I have Marisella

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visit my class at the University of Arizona this spring

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as a guest to share what the FBI does in

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terms of educating the public to prevent them from being scammed.

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I was very impressed with what they do. I was

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very impressed with Maricella, so I thought she would make

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a great guest today on Let's talk about scam So

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if we can bring in Marisella, we'll go ahead and

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get started. Good morning, Marcela. How are you doing today?

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Good morning, I'm doing well. Thank you for having me well.

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Thanks thanks for coming on our show and sharing all

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the wealth of knowledge that you have and sharing what

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the FBI does. So let's start out with what is

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an FBI Victim specialist and what do you do? So?

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Victim special and the FBI helps victims through a criminal investigation.

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So there are two aspects when it comes to advocacy.

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So I work alongside agents, often responding within an hour

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after an incident has happened or when operations have happened.

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Also if they're doing search warrants or arrest warrants and

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there are victims that are there. Oftentimes my contact with

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victims would be through the phone or in person or

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even sometimes in different aspects in a hospital setting. We

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meet the victim where they're at where they can be

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comfortable in guiding them through the criminal justice system. If

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the case is indicted, I do pass the baton to

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my counterpartners at the US Attorney's office, and from then

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we kind of guide a victim through that process, through

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the investigation phase and then into the court phase all.

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Oftentimes victims, when you are a victim of a crime,

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you're going to have rights that are automatic and then

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rights that you have to request or invoke. That's what

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we do is victim avicates and then also give them

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access to resources.

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How long has this position existed at the FBI?

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This position has you know, honestly, I'm going to get

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the year wrong of when it had started. It has

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grown quite a bit since the inception of it. Around

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nine to eleven is when it had expanded and just

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grew immensely. Nine to eleven had happened and there was

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the need to see on the federal side services directly

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to folks, and that was a boom, going from less

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than twenty to over one hundred in OAR Cadre now

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and it's expanded also to include cafes with our child

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child adolescent forensic interviewers as part of that too, administrative folks.

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We have analysts. We've also have a support staff that

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are able to offer the administrative part of it too.

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So the FBI has something called Operation Level Up. Tell

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us about that operation what its goal is.

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So Operation UP began in twenty twenty two. What it

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is is a response to what was seen as a

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cryptocurrency investment fraud. These are often investment scams that are

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going on in stealing funds from people and with the

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perception that they are investing money in a legitimate way

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and that money is growing and then being stolen from

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them and sent to overseas organizations. So it began with

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the agents from San Diego and a forensic account here

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in the Phoenix office, and they created a proactive way

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to warn victims of cryptocurrency investment fraud. This program once

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was just a pine of a pilot or program, has

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now expanded to do a national initiative. So from that

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we've expanded to now in excuse me in Detroit, and

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we have added three more victims specialists to assist with that.

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Over the years, we have contacted seven thousand victims and

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have noticed that we have say four hundred over four

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hundred and fifty million dollars falling into the hands of scammers.

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Wow, that's impressive. I love being proactive. So when you

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say warn, how are you advised? Like, how does that?

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How do you guys get warned or how do you

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guys find out that someone is being scammed potentially losing money,

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How does what's the nuts and bolts behind that?

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So it's all through means that there are platforms that

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have gone through legitimate means that we gain that information

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and it has shown that they are fraudulent platforms that

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we communicated with and that we can see that people

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have been victimized by that. So we call the victims,

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identify themselves and its agents that are calling the victims

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and making that initial contact to let them know that

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they have seen that they've invested in a fraudulent platform. Oftentimes,

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we have these scammers that are running multiple fraudulent platforms

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that we have identified in that aspect, and we want

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to warn them and say like, hey, we see that

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you've given them money. You need to stop. It is

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not legitimate. They're stilling from you. We also encourage them

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to vet where we're from, giving them the first and

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last name and also the field office that we work with,

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so the victims can call that field office and confirm

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and then be transferred over to that agent to do that.

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My role is a victims specialist. It comes in to

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this is that they were seeing the need. When you're

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notifying people, it is a traumatic notification to let them

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know oftentimes over one hundred thousand dollars that people find

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out have been stolen to them. The impact of that

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is deep and the feelings that come with that are

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not easy to process or digest, and oftentimes there can

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resume suicidal ideations that come for that, and our part

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is Victim specialist, is to intervene and to offer that

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process for them and to talk that over and get

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them connected with resources in their area and also nationally.

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For that, do you struggle to get these victims to

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believe that they're actual being scammed.

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Yes, that's always a struggle for it because it is

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very much a cold call. We don't know where they're at,

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and it does it's very common that folks get hung

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up on there is a process that they'll do to

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call them, send them an email, and then follow up

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with that phone call again. And then at that point

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when they're receiving that information, then they do tend to

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call back and when we're encouraging them, please call this

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field office. This is where I'm at. Here's where it is.

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And in addition to that, since the program has expanded

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on the FBI at website, we also have Operation Level

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up where there is information to show that we are

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calling folks to notify them that they have been a

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victim of a scam.

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From your experience, how are most of these victims being

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contacted which methods through?

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There's a variety. Most of the time it's all through

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social media. It could be one through social media on Facebook,

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dating sites, even we've seen networks for entrepreneurs that are

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going or the random text that people receive on their phone,

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like Oh, I'm trying to contact Sue, it's been a while,

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can we talk and then end up finding out it's

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not Sue, and then they develop a relationship a lot

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of social engineering and connecting that contact with folks and

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developing a fake relationship and a friendship of some kind

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with them, either through an investment scheme or they do

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different ways, either romantically or an investment scheme. That they're

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trying to do is to make extra money to get

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better kind of had like education plans for their children

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or put more money into the retirement that gives attractive

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options for people that they're encouraging them to invest.

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When people report things to IC three dot gov is

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that one of the ways that the FBI finds out

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about these scams.

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Yes, So there's a few ways, but that's one of

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the biggest ways that we collect information from folks. We

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have thousands of these scams that do come in every

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single day, and then that is the ones that are

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reported that we do get reported. Oftentimes the information we

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pull when we're building cases come from an IC three complaint,

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and then oftentimes what we have is we have one

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person who has filed the ICY three complaint, but then

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they share like, hey, I was seeing that I was

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earning income or earning an investment that it was growing,

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so I brought in my sister or my best friend,

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and then they didn't report. So there's the other aspect

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of that, where you have one person that discloses their

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victimization and then there are other people that they have

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brought in. There's also that guilt because they brought in

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family members or friends to it that it often exacerbates

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the shame that they've already initially felt.

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Right, you know, one of the things that when I've

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done presentations, people say, well, if I report to this

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government database, is it just going to go into some

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black hole and no one looks at it. There's this fear.

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But the FBI reviews these ongoing case and sees if

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they're connected to something else. Just like you said, you know,

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what do you tell the public when they bring up

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that concern. I'm just reporting to this massive government database.

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So oftentimes I want them to know, like, even if

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there isn't an outcome or resolution that was made to

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feel whole, I want you to know that you've done

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everything that you can. You've reported, you've gone forward and

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protected yourself. You have done everything that you can. While

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I can't guarantee that a case is going to be investigated,

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I can say that you've done everything that you can.

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It may not be today, it may not be tomorrow,

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and it might even be three or five years, but

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your information could lead to a bigger piece.

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Okay, very good, thank you. When have you seen any

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of these portals that the scammers have created to make

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it appear that this cryptocurrency investment is actually making money? Yes?

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Oh yes, I've had victims share screenshots, screen recordings of

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apps that they have been developed in platforms of where

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they're taken to where it is very much believable. It

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looks very sophisticated. There has been time and energy that

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have been put into these platforms, and this isn't something

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that looks cheap or that. It's very much believable, and

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I can recognize and understand why folks become victims to

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that because it is very much believable, and it does

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look like you are gaining money and your investment is growing.

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Right, and there's that you know, fomo fear of missing

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out when you're making money. And then I like that

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you shared earlier that people bring in their family and friends,

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you know, because they want them to be part of it.

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And that's part of the scheme too of the scammers. Now,

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I've also been told by victims that a lot of

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times the scammers will let them, you know, withdraw some

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of their money or even all of their money to

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make it appear that their quote investment is liquid. Have

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you seen that as well from your point of view.

225
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Yes, we have, and that actually makes it more believable.

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It is a tactic that scammers use by saying initially

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they had let's say twelve thousand dollars that they invested,

228
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and say like, hey, you've made some money. It looks

229
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really great. You've made about doubled what you had. How

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about this, are you needing to pull any money out,

231
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so they give them like twenty five hundred or five

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thousand dollars, and then the scammer will come back and say, hey,

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we just have another one, another investment. We have a

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short window because you're a preferred member or VIP, I'm

235
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only going to offer you to get in on the

236
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base floor of this. So if you come and invest

237
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like thirty thousand dollars, you know you saw already that

238
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you got to twenty five hundred back or the five

239
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thousand back, so you can see. So that gives the

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incentive for them to give even more money.

241
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Right right on these I just thought of this question.

242
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On these conversations. Are these by phone, text, social media

243
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or some other method.

244
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They're a variety of them, so phone texts, what's app,

245
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they even move them into other platforms that they'll use,

246
00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:24.600
either messenger and depending on what the camera is, signal,

247
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signal and what's app seemed to be the most popular ones.

248
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And that's because we believe a lot of these bad actors.

249
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We believe and we have seen that these bad actors

250
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are overseas, so that seems to be popular with them.

251
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The other thing aspect to it is that they teach folks.

252
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So if you're not very comfortable with technology, they are.

253
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These cameras are excellent teachers in coaching people on how

254
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to develop and sign up for a cryptocurrency account, how

255
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would you wire from your banking account online to a

256
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cryptocurrency and then invest in the platform. So they are

257
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very good teachers. They're very patient with them, they encourage them,

258
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and they manipulate into that and developed that false sense

259
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of relationship and trust that they develop with their victims.

260
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So we've talked about the cryptocurrency scams, pig butchering. What

261
00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:15.759
other scams do you see where older adults are targeted.

262
00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:18.639
So some of the other scams that we've also put

263
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on our site and even on a Phoenix FBI the

264
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gold so gold couriers or wiring money from your account

265
00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:30.080
and taking or taking money out from your account and

266
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buying gold. We're seeing that a lot right now, and

267
00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:36.759
that's victimizing elderly too, is that we're seeing that scam

268
00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:39.840
that they're going to buy gold and then having someone

269
00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:43.600
pick up the gold because gold is more stable, it's

270
00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:46.919
more functional. It's an argument that they give. We also

271
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have sometimes the scams that they're saying they're their government,

272
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either from the IRS, the FBI, or some federal agency

273
00:15:53.960 --> 00:15:56.759
that is saying like, hey, you've been a scam, either

274
00:15:56.799 --> 00:16:00.440
from computer pop ups or something of that nature. And

275
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:02.440
then they say like, hey, the way to do this

276
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is that you need to get bold, because that's the

277
00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:07.320
way that we can make sure that you're safe and

278
00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:11.159
your money is safe. It's all fraudulent and a scam.

279
00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:13.759
And then there's the other traditional ones where we have

280
00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:18.080
the money excuse me, the romance scams, where they develop

281
00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:21.320
relationship with folks that are online and often pray on

282
00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:25.720
those who have been recently divorced or widowed or just

283
00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:28.240
are kind of lonely, and they develop that contact with

284
00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:34.360
them as a romance scam. Then we have the grandparent

285
00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:37.559
scam is another one where grandparents are getting a random

286
00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:39.720
phone call from a phone that they don't know, but

287
00:16:39.879 --> 00:16:42.519
it's their grandchild saying that they're stuck somewhere or they're

288
00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:45.480
in the hospital and they need money right away to

289
00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.919
be doing that, and oftentimes the folks panic and then

290
00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:50.879
they have what are called the fakes of it. The

291
00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:56.000
AI are using phones for that, and not very much,

292
00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:58.480
it's convincing enough that they believe it is their grandchild

293
00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.159
in danger without vetting or calling their phone to double

294
00:17:01.240 --> 00:17:04.079
check to see if they're safe.

295
00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:10.680
So an estimate, like how many victims of these, you know,

296
00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:14.240
financial scams that are older adults have have you talked

297
00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:16.440
to say in the last five years? What would be

298
00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:17.759
your guess?

299
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:25.200
Oh, I can't, It's that's hard, I would say. To

300
00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:28.640
be I would honestly probably say like one hundred a year.

301
00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:31.759
I have multiple cases that are on there, and that's

302
00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:35.400
I mean, even just from my caseload, I have quite

303
00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:37.640
a few that are on there, and I would say,

304
00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:39.880
just to be like even conservative, probably like one hundred

305
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:41.960
a year. I have folks that I talk to constantly.

306
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:44.599
I have new people that I'm making contact with, and

307
00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:47.519
then other folks too within operation level up where I

308
00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:49.839
don't have an active case, but I'm part of that

309
00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:55.559
notification connection to resources initially so that I have that

310
00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:58.759
aspect of them. So even in the community and doing outreach,

311
00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:01.799
I often find people that share, hey, I have been

312
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:05.240
or they know someone. It's quite common. So probably like

313
00:18:05.559 --> 00:18:07.319
in the past, I would say like one hundred times,

314
00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:09.119
like one hundred people a year. It's not uncommon.

315
00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:15.519
Wow, So those hundred people, how has being scam scammed

316
00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:18.720
affected them physically, mentally, emotionally.

317
00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:22.319
So when we talk about the elderly and there is

318
00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:25.640
a scam, I kind of think of it in a

319
00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:31.240
few ways. There is that impact that comes from it. First,

320
00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:36.240
the emotional part of it of shock that comes by it,

321
00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:40.240
and then shame is quickly followed because we know better.

322
00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:43.279
I've done this, I'm successful, I'm intelligent, I've done a

323
00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:45.640
lot of things in my life where I believe I

324
00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:48.640
can see that I should have seen this coming. And

325
00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:51.079
then there comes a second part of it of realizing

326
00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:55.680
that money is gone, it's not coming back, so it's

327
00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:01.759
called like the erosion of legacy. The money that you

328
00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:05.039
have saved and built and worked hard for is gone

329
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.599
within like a month, and you don't have that window

330
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:11.720
to be able to earn that income back and build it.

331
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So then that's again you feel helpless for that. And

332
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then there are the concerns of independence when it's shared

333
00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:21.519
with family members, the impact to you and asking for

334
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:24.680
help and support. There's a concern that your loss of

335
00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:27.680
independency also that family members are going to be taking

336
00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:32.480
over your finances and stewardship of that. So then there's

337
00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:36.119
that loss of independence, so already you've been impacted with

338
00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:38.440
the distrust of that, and then it can spill over

339
00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:43.000
as to a secondary victimization mistrusting your family members, doctors,

340
00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:45.359
and even people at the bank thinking that they're out

341
00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:48.000
to get you because you've already had that, so you

342
00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:50.640
get the distrust of the public in general. Then there's

343
00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:53.359
also the aspect where you hear of the broken heart syndrome,

344
00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:55.880
so that impact has affected you and you're feeling all

345
00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:58.799
these different things your health that may have been compromised

346
00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:02.039
earlier to begin with, and then it exacerbates those symptoms

347
00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:06.200
where it isn't uncommon that you'll see people physically decline

348
00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:08.319
after a victimization.

349
00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:13.759
Wow, it's so And the thing that you said at

350
00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:17.079
the very beginning of our show today is as a

351
00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:19.759
victim specialist, you deal with people that are the victims

352
00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:22.079
of violent crimes. And I know you shared that when

353
00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:25.359
you were in our class, people that have been physically

354
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:30.440
abused and assaulted and victims what we call violent crime,

355
00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:33.119
and then you're also interacting with people who are victims

356
00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:36.480
of these financial crimes. How do the two victims compare?

357
00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:38.839
What are the similarities and what are the differences.

358
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:43.039
Trauma is very similar in the first part of a shock,

359
00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:46.559
right that you end up having, and that is a

360
00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:49.519
loss of control. You no longer have a control of

361
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:52.960
a situation. It is not something that's planned, It is

362
00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:57.880
something that happened to you. So it's the resources in

363
00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:01.160
respect to that, I have victims of physical assaults and

364
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:03.839
shootings or even the loss of a loved one through

365
00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:07.960
a homicide, where their resources and access to their resources

366
00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:11.279
and needs will be very different from those impacted by

367
00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:17.599
financial crime. The physical manifestations of the emotional impact do

368
00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:23.599
come out in the same way. They have self isolation.

369
00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:28.279
They tend to go through some depressions, loss of appetite,

370
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:33.119
trouble sleeping, having nightmares. Those are very consistent as reactions

371
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:35.799
to trauma, regardless if it's a violent crime or a

372
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:39.279
financial What we're seeing though in financial crimes is the

373
00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:45.839
resiliency part of it. Wealth and financial stability that brings

374
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.759
you independence, and that loss of independence and resiliency can

375
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:52.799
very much affect how you move forward. Where you can

376
00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:55.240
have folks of a violent crime that have that financial

377
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.000
stability that know, well, I have some savings, so I

378
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:02.759
can be okay for ANWW or they're going to see

379
00:22:02.759 --> 00:22:04.440
it a little bit different and just focusing on the

380
00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:06.880
physical assets of recovering from what they need to do,

381
00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:10.119
and then safety concerns. Safety concerns would be a little

382
00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:13.319
bit different. Within a financial crime aspect, it's going to

383
00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:16.319
be access to their personal information. And then also what

384
00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:18.000
are they going to be facing if there are any

385
00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:21.920
financial like find some and fees associated with money that

386
00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:25.160
was pulled out for a one case for example, because

387
00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:27.640
sometimes they'll be facing finds and fees with the IRS.

388
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:34.279
So I had I was online and actually this was

389
00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:36.680
actually in person. I'm sorry. I had someone tell me

390
00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:40.599
I am not a victim. I have to be a survivor.

391
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:43.599
This was someone who lost money in a financial scam

392
00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:45.799
and did not want to use the word victim but

393
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:50.640
intentionally chose the word survivor. What are your thoughts about that?

394
00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:57.119
People not, you know, avoiding the use using the word victim, and.

395
00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:59.519
That's where they're at in their journey and our and

396
00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:01.720
iris that that's one of the things if like, can

397
00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:04.440
you please not call me a victim? It's like absolutely,

398
00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:06.400
what do you prefer to be called? I prefer the

399
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:10.799
term survivor. In advocacy. We often have that that you'll

400
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:14.599
see survivor, excuse me, victim, survivor and then thriver as

401
00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:17.720
they're going through their victimization and processing through that, and

402
00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:20.240
it's not linear. It can go back and forth and

403
00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:23.200
then they can stain that and the legal system using

404
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.799
the term victim is very impactful and powerful. It is

405
00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:29.240
a right that is afforded to people. So it's very

406
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:32.519
important where in my role as a victim specialist, when

407
00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:36.319
someone is identified as a victim, it is automatically access

408
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:39.920
to the court system, access to resources, access to me

409
00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:43.799
is a victim specialist with coordinating those resources and finding

410
00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:46.440
out they're through a needs assessment what's going to fit

411
00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:50.440
their situation. So in that aspect, it's very important when

412
00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:56.119
we are seeing that to understand that every person's different.

413
00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:58.799
And I explain that you're going to be heard as

414
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:01.480
being listed as a thing them and the reason for

415
00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:04.599
that is access to information and resources. But if you

416
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:07.279
prefer for me to call you survivor, that is understandable.

417
00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:10.039
We'll do that and in meetings will also let the

418
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:12.640
team know, hey, they prefer to be called a survivor,

419
00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:16.759
even though the legal language has specific meaning to victim.

420
00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:22.240
So recently I read an article by ARP and it

421
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:26.400
basically was about saying that words matter when we talk

422
00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:31.559
about people that have been scammed. For instance, we don't

423
00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:34.759
say they fell for a scam. They say. The better

424
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:39.640
words would be a scammer targeted this person, and they

425
00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:42.759
had a whole chart of words that are better choices.

426
00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:44.880
And I've actually gone back and looked at some articles

427
00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:47.640
I've written about two years ago, and I was guilty

428
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:50.880
of using some of those terms, and I've since upgraded

429
00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:55.839
my vocabulary. Are you at the FBI, are you guys

430
00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:59.200
intentional about the wording that you use as it relates

431
00:24:59.240 --> 00:24:59.920
to victims.

432
00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:02.880
Yes, we are. That's one of the big things. So

433
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:07.160
we often hear like pig butchering, right. It is not

434
00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:12.559
victim centered and it tends to do blaming the victim, right.

435
00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:15.519
So we've moved away from that and we are using

436
00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:19.359
the term crypto investment fraud is what we're moving towards

437
00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:23.039
and using in that language to label it, because isn't

438
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:25.440
the victim's fault. It is the scammers. They were the

439
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:28.440
ones that targeted, they were the ones that developed in relationship,

440
00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:31.240
they were the ones that lied. It was not the victims.

441
00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:34.400
And that's one of the things too, reminding folks like, hey,

442
00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:36.880
it may feel like that self blame, but you are

443
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.599
not guilty for doing this. They did this too. They

444
00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:42.119
targeted you, they lied to you, and they created a

445
00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:44.559
whole narrative that was fake.

446
00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:50.960
No. Absolutely, I love that you're transitioning from pig butchering

447
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:53.920
to crypto investment fraud. I hate the term pig butchering.

448
00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:57.759
The only thing good about it is it gets people's attention.

449
00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:02.640
Because every time I do a presentation, the vast majority

450
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:06.559
of people have not heard that term. So you know,

451
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:08.839
I'm going to try moving in that direction as well.

452
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:11.000
I mean, we're constantly trying to get better at what

453
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:12.920
we do. I know that you you as well in

454
00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:16.680
your colleagues. I wanted to bring up the crypto ATMs.

455
00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:22.720
So when we're talking about these crypto scams, you know,

456
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:26.920
what is your you know, what is your opinion on

457
00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:29.519
these crypto ATMs and what are like the warning signs?

458
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:31.160
What do you tell people about them?

459
00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:37.200
Just there's it's different. It's something that could great as

460
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:40.359
an option for people to put in there. What I

461
00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:45.880
see cryptocurrency or the ATMs is my interaction with them

462
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:48.880
or I see is not always positive. It is a

463
00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:51.680
tool that is used for that. Unfortunately it's not used

464
00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:54.079
in the best sense or what we're seeing it's supposed

465
00:26:54.119 --> 00:26:57.279
to be used for. So it's like with anything new

466
00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:00.160
that I always see people do your research before and

467
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:03.319
look at it to see what it is there. There

468
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:06.319
is legislation now in Arizona when it comes to the

469
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:10.759
ATMs that people can enact. It is a small window,

470
00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:13.480
but I do encourage folks that you just look atm

471
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:16.960
KIOSK Arizona Lot and you can read in there what

472
00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:20.000
that is and there is a specific thing. If you've

473
00:27:20.039 --> 00:27:22.640
lost money through a scam and it was into putting

474
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:26.079
it into an ATM, please look into look into that

475
00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:28.920
see if you fall into it, and report it. And

476
00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:32.440
I'm hoping I always hope, you know that we would

477
00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:34.200
be able to get money back. But I always tell

478
00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:36.759
people plan for the worst, but hope for the best,

479
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:40.079
and definitely be proactive in that reporting. The more that

480
00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:42.240
we report, the more that we're going to be able

481
00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:47.200
to tighten that circle around these scammers. And they're constantly evolving.

482
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:50.799
They're very sophisticated. But the more that people report and

483
00:27:50.839 --> 00:27:53.599
not sit in shame the closer that that circle is

484
00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:56.519
being able to tie that they cannot pivot as fast.

485
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:02.240
If someone feels that they've been vic them victimize any

486
00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:05.440
sort of financial scam, who should they report the crime to?

487
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:10.440
So definitely, I see three for the federal aspect of it.

488
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:13.880
So I see three is a big clearinghouse for a crime.

489
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:16.799
We encourage people to report through the other aspect too,

490
00:28:16.839 --> 00:28:19.920
is that we work with State Attorneys Offices AG's offices

491
00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:23.599
here in Arizona. They have their threshold of what they

492
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:27.160
do for prosecuting and investigating scams too. So I would

493
00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:30.640
also recommend reporting to your local Attorney General's office and

494
00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:35.200
within your state, and then if your municipality has that

495
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:39.519
ability to investigate crimes on the internet or financial fraud.

496
00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:43.119
Some municipalities do have that ability, or they may work

497
00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:45.880
as a TFO, which is a Task force officer within

498
00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:50.519
the FBI and they work alongside agents and investigating financial crimes.

499
00:28:50.599 --> 00:28:53.240
It just depends on the jurisdiction. I want to make

500
00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:55.880
sure that folks have all those options that they're available,

501
00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:58.599
and I think if you do on a local state

502
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:00.680
and then a federal level, you got all your bases

503
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.359
covered all right.

504
00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:04.599
I want to focus on something positive here, because we've

505
00:29:04.599 --> 00:29:08.039
been talking about some dreary stuff, you know, people losing money,

506
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:11.880
people being victimized, people being emotionally traumatized. What's the most

507
00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:13.599
rewarding part of the job for you?

508
00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:19.480
I think when you see people grow and that resiliency,

509
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:25.039
humans have that ability to adapt and improvise and overcome.

510
00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:27.440
And then seeing so I have one victim that she

511
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:30.559
calls me about every two months, every three months, and

512
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:33.559
then we're just going in cases, still proceeding. We're just

513
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:36.000
kind of in that process waiting for things to develop

514
00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:38.680
and just kind of doing a needs assessment at that time.

515
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:40.359
And I was like, well, you know, what are you

516
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:42.200
doing right now? What's going on with you guys and

517
00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:44.599
kind of seeing where they're at right And for her

518
00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:47.720
it was pretty funny. She was going to be celebrating

519
00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:51.279
her forty fifth wedding anniversary. I was like, oh, that's

520
00:29:51.319 --> 00:29:54.119
excited and that She's like, yeah, my kids are throwing it.

521
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:58.960
We're doing well, we are recovering still financially. But the

522
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:01.200
thing for her, she's like, I am looking forward to

523
00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:04.680
that and I've been married to him. And I was like, well, congratulations,

524
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:06.440
and then she goes, well, he should be getting a

525
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:10.759
medal of honor for being married to me. I just

526
00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:13.480
thought that was the funniest thing and I could not

527
00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:16.440
stop laughing. And then I was like, I'm probably gonna

528
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:18.640
end up using that with my husband. So I think

529
00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:23.240
seeing the resiliency that people have and that capacity to

530
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:27.279
still see and look forward to the joy in life,

531
00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:31.519
whether it's a big celebration in milestones and still having

532
00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:34.799
that victimization that's always going to be with you, but

533
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:38.680
still creating that space to just feel pure joy.

534
00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:43.480
What advice would you give for families who have an

535
00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:47.920
older family member, you know, trying to protect them.

536
00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:51.920
So the biggest thing I would think is to listen.

537
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:52.519
Right.

538
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:56.720
Oftentimes when someone tells them and someone we love tells

539
00:30:56.759 --> 00:30:59.119
them they've been a victim of a crime, the first

540
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:01.640
thing that we wanted to do is fix it, right,

541
00:31:01.880 --> 00:31:03.920
That's what we want to do. It's a natural thing

542
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.960
to fix, to solve, and to amend. What I recommend

543
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:09.920
is that you listen and that you say I'm really

544
00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:12.920
sorry this happened to you, saying I'm sorry and creating

545
00:31:12.920 --> 00:31:15.359
that space just to hear, and then even asking is like,

546
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:17.000
do you want me to hear or do you want

547
00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:19.319
my advice? And then the other thing is like I

548
00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:21.519
am concerned, or these are the things I'd like to

549
00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:24.880
help you with. Ultimately, you want to give folks that

550
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:27.680
space to make small decisions on how they're going to

551
00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:30.799
move forward. They have lost control of their whole situation

552
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:34.759
and having someone come in, especially if it's someone that

553
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:37.880
they have raised, to come in and take over, that

554
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:41.039
can be very much that loss of independence, and you

555
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:45.240
then are just that fault and trying to help them. Unknowingly,

556
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:48.400
you're taking over and that's not helping them process their

557
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:49.200
own victimization.

558
00:31:50.440 --> 00:31:57.759
Maricela, how can your listeners get more information about financial

559
00:31:57.839 --> 00:31:59.799
crimes like the ones we discussed today?

560
00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:03.440
I think very much your organization Rose does develop some

561
00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:07.079
of the information and resources on their sites here in Arizona,

562
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:13.640
in the Maricopa County, we have the area on Aging

563
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:17.240
the I Book of Resources for local here.

564
00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:21.119
We may have lost Marisella. Well, if we can get

565
00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:24.720
our back and ask her one last question. Yeah, So,

566
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:29.799
I really appreciate the things that Marisella said today. I mean,

567
00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:34.799
she's encountered over one hundred victims in like the past

568
00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:40.880
five years, and I love that she shared the unfortunate

569
00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:44.680
situation where these people have been traumatized and affected people

570
00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:47.039
in a variety of different ways. And the one big

571
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:49.799
thing I learned today was a lot of people end

572
00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:53.079
up bringing in their family members or friends trying to

573
00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:55.240
think in they're helping them out, thinking that they're going

574
00:32:55.319 --> 00:32:58.240
to make some money, but they end up actually creating

575
00:32:58.279 --> 00:33:02.519
more victims. So then there's that built over bringing others

576
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:05.680
into a scam. I mean, I that was the big

577
00:33:06.039 --> 00:33:10.480
thing that showed up today And god, that's got to

578
00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:14.880
be horrible. So but unfortunately that's what these scammers do.

579
00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:17.359
They will mention, Hey, is there anybody else you know

580
00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:20.079
that might be interested in making a lot of money

581
00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:26.799
on cryptocurrency? And god, that's that's just horrible. Yeah, And

582
00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:30.359
I also like what she said about trying to get

583
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:33.079
away from the word pig butchering. So pig butchering is

584
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:39.359
basically a scam where they convince you to invest in cryptocurrency,

585
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:43.079
but you're really not even investing in cryptocurrency, and when

586
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:46.880
you've put all your money into this so called investment,

587
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:50.200
they will basically kill you financially. That's where they get

588
00:33:50.200 --> 00:33:53.920
the pig butchering. They don't kill you physically, but they

589
00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:57.160
take all your money and it's absolutely dramatic and horrible.

590
00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:01.440
So they've definitely they've moved into crypt though investment fraud,

591
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:04.440
and I'm going to try using that as well. It's

592
00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:07.160
a much better term, and it, you know, it takes

593
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:11.880
the focus away from the victim and actually places it

594
00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:15.039
on the actual scammer itself, because these scammers are targeting

595
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:19.199
us and our family members and friends. So all right, well,

596
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.440
Marcel's not coming back, so I'm going to wrap it up.

597
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:25.360
I wish I could have thanked her in person. I'll

598
00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:27.360
talk to her afterwards, but I really want to thank

599
00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:31.679
Maricela Sabalis from the FBI for sharing some of her

600
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:38.000
insight and experience with us today. Definitely go to FBI

601
00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:42.360
dot gov and find out more about Operation landed Up

602
00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:47.440
or Operation Level Up. I'm sorry, and definitely if you

603
00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:50.119
have a crime, report it to IC three dot go ov.

604
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:53.840
That's IC three dot g o V. And thank you

605
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:56.519
for listening to Let's Talk about scams. Joyce will be

606
00:34:56.559 --> 00:35:00.760
back next week. Please go to Rosadvocacy dot org and

607
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:03.639
sign up for our email list. We love to provide

608
00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:06.960
information for you, for your family, your friends, and your neighbors.

609
00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:11.280
Our goal is to prevent people from getting scammed in

610
00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:13.159
the first place, So thank you for listening and we'll

611
00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:14.000
see you next week.

612
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:18.400
Well that's all the knowledge for this episode. Tune in

613
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:22.639
every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on KFOURHD Radio

614
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:27.480
at KFOURHD dot com as Joyce explores a variety of knowledge.

615
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:31.119
So you have the power to make scam protection your

616
00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:34.880
healthy habit and until then, feel free to reach out

617
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:37.480
to Joyce and let's talk about scams.