June 9, 2026

Technology and Education and their role in Scams

Technology and Education and their role in Scams
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Season 2

Ever wonder how technology and education can work hand in hand when it comes to scams? Tune in and find out as Patrick Coughlin with Savi talks about his new product Scamwise (https://scamwise.com).

Patrick will discuss his loved one's scam experience and his purpose in developing scamwise.

Let’s Talk About Scams is broadcast live Tuesdays at 8AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Let’s Talk About Scams TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

Let’s Talk About Scams Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Disclaimer: The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional / legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references; however, R.O.S.E. Resources / Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/let-s-talk-about-scams--6483699/support.

This episode includes AI-generated content.

WEBVTT

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This program is designed to provide general information with regards

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to the subject matters covered. This information is given with

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the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station

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are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling,

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professional service, or any advice.

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You should seek the services.

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Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.

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The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational

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purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional

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00:00:37.240 --> 00:00:41.000
legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted

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sources and references. However, Rose Resources outreach to safeguard the

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elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to

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a scam. Let's talk about scams. It's the must listen

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show for anyone who wants to protect themselves and their

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loved ones from scams. Every Tuesday am Pacific time on

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K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose, and

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her guests will provide valuable insights and practical tips on

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how to recognize and protect yourself from scams.

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And now here.

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Is your host, Joyce Petrowski. Hi, I'm David staying active mentally,

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thing chess.

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Those are all very important things. I'm seventy two, but

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I'm going to keep on learning. I'm going to keep

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on moving. I'm gonna keep on living my life.

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Healthcare for David's next move. Learn more at AR twelve

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health dot com.

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Hi everybody, welcome back. I'm Joyce Petrowski, founder and board

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president of Rose Resources Outreach to safeguard the elderly. Don't

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forget to get on our website at w or Roseadvocacy

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dot org. You can find our social media channels at

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the top of the homepage, scroll down to the bottom,

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and you can sign up for our email and or

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mailed newsletter.

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We do both.

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Two great things with the email newsletter is that you're

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going to get scam information and tips and information about Rose.

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But every Tuesday morning, you're going to get a Tuesday

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tip at nine point fifteen Arizona time, and you might

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look at it for a few weeks and say, you

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know what, I already know these tips. Well, that's great.

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It's reinforcement, but it also by seeing scam information reoccurring

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every week in your inbox, opening up, just taking a

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quick few minutes to read through it that helps reinforce

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your scam prevention habits, your healthy skepticism and making it

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a habit so the next time you're contacted, you're more

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apt to think scam okay, what do I need to

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do in order to determine if this is legitimate or

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if it really is a scam? So today we have

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a we have a guest patch Coglin. He spent more

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than twenty years building teams, products, and companies that protect

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governments and fortune five hundred enterprises from the most sophisticated

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cyber threats. He co founded true Star Technology, a security

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intelligence platform acquired by Splunk and now leads Savvy Security,

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where his team built scam wise, a free tool that

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gives anyone an instant assessment of a suspicious message. When

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his seventy three year old mother was targeted by an

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AI powered voice impersonation scam, Patrick turned his expertise toward

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a question most cybersecurity professionals never ask, Why do smart

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capable people fall for scams in the first place.

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What he found wasn't a.

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Technology problem, It was a human psychology problem, fueled by

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criminal organizations operating at a scale most people can imagine

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his debut book, Dark Side of the Boom House Scale

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Hijack The AI Revolution exposes the networks behind the global

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scam epidemic, the psychological tactics they've weaponized, and what families

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and communities can do to fight back. Patrick is a

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Georgetown Saint Andrews and Stanford alum, and he lives in

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Los Angeles with his wife's son and dog. So let's

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welcome Patrick.

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Thank you, Joyce. That was a great introduction. Very happy to.

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Be here, Thank you, and thank you for joining us.

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Happy to have you, and I'm looking forward to this

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conversation because the one thing that I really liked about

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your bio was what he found was not a technology problem,

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it was a human psychology problem. I think that's where

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a lot of people, including the government, fail when it

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comes to trying to prevent scams. So you spent over

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twenty years in the cybersecurity in cybersecurity protecting governments and

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Fortune five hundred companies. So what made you shift your

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focus to protecting just everyday people.

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Yeah, I think, Joyce, if you sort of if we

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take a step back and look at my career in

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the last twenty years or so, I think the through

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line or the threat is. I've really focused on how

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bad guys used technology. I started my career actually looking

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at at the time this is again twenty plus years ago,

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looking at terrorist threats and groups from threats from terrorist

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organizations and how terrorists were potentially using the Internet to

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launder money, to communicate, to recruit, and then over time

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that sort of parlayed into looking at how bad actors

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were using technology as a channel and a mechanism to

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target government agencies, and then later enterprise is to steal information,

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to steal money, whatever it may be. And then about

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eighteen years or eighteen months ago, two years ago, my mom,

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as you said in the introduction, got one of these

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fake kidnapping calls where you know, she she's sitting at

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home in one day her phone rings and it shows

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up and says it's coming from my sister Courtney, and

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she answers the phone and she thinks she hears my

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sister's voice and sort of a blood curdling scream and

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a voice that says, Mom, they've got me. And then

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a man comes on the phone and says, we've got

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your daughter at the at the local walmart in Oletha, Kent,

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where I grew up and we're going to kill her

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in the parking lot if you don't pallace twelve hundred

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dollars immediately. And you know, by a lucky sequence of

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events and some fortunate sort of moments, my mom sees

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her iPad sitting on the table while she's on the phone,

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and she thinks to text my brother in law, my

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sister's husband, and say, you know, but she's still caught

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up in it, and she says, what are we going

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to do about Courtney? She believed absolutely, And you know,

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luckily my brother in law is there and answers right

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away and says, what do you mean Courtney's in the

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shower right here with us.

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Yeah.

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So that sort of provided the just enough of a

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spark of doubt that my mom was able to sort

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of step back from the situation, hang up the phone.

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Something didn't feel right. Called my sister, realized this was fake.

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And by the time she called me, you know, she

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was shook to the core. Joyce like you can imagine,

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you know, how how destabilizing that is. Couldn't believe that

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that this could happen. How could it happen? The phone

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said it was Courtney. It sounded like Courtney, And after

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we calm mom down, what was going through my mind is, well,

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what has fundamentally changed in sort of the underlying economy

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of cyber criminals of sort of the bad guys on

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the web that they could target little Beth Coglin from

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Kansas like this, somebody did some work to figure out,

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you know, who she was, who her daughter was, what

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the phone numbers were, what the voice was potentially, and

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that that twelve hundred dollars would have been the starting

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ask for a life, and that somebody would have been

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really happy. It would have been a huge score for

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that scammer if they got twelve hundred dollars for that work.

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And so for me, it kind of invigorated some some

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latent analysts and intelligence skills that I had used earlier

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in my career, and I kind of went down a

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rabbit hole and I saw what you've been seeing for

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for a long time, which is cyber criminals are now

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sort of taking the same level of sophistication and scale

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that they would have pointed at enterprises and governments and

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are now point it at seniors, the elderly families. They're

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really all demographics and so That's what really drove me

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to say that the threat has shifted from governments to

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enterprises and now to living rooms in kitchen tables of

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the really Americans. And that's that's what I want to

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spend the next chapter of my life on, is helping

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to to stop this this rapidly accelerating problem.

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Yeah.

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I mean it's every year, you know, when we see

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the statistics come out, and right, the statistics are just

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on what's reported, and we know that there are so

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many more people that just don't report, especially in this

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older adult population, the sixty plus population.

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That don't report.

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So it's just the actual losses in number of victims

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are just exponential based on you know, but the the numbers.

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That are reported.

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And you know, you live in California, you guys are

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always in the top three for the statistics. You have

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a huge population just to begin with, but Arizona is

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always in the top ten and we hover right around

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somewhere between fourth and sixth.

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So we don't have.

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As big a population as California, but we have a

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big retired population. And it's just, you know, it's amazing

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how much information can be found online about people. I

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don't think we realize everything that is considered public information.

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So it's and there's go ahead.

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I'm sorry, well, I was just going to say, I mean,

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what you hit on with the underreporting is actually a

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big part of the problem. In fact, digital fraud is

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the most underreported crime in the world. If you look

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at residential burglary or any other sort of type of crime, shoplifting,

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whatever it may be, digital fraud is exponentially underreported compared

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to those and a lot of that is because of, unfortunately,

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the shame and the stigma it's involved when you talk

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about a scam victim, and we can talk more about that,

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but the impact of that is this underreporting means we're

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under resourced from a law enforcement perspective, we're under educated

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about the problem because we don't have our arms as

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a society, as a country, as a state, whatever it

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may be, around the real scale of the problem. And

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so part of what we advocate for, and I know

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you do as well, is we've got to sort of

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bring down this level of shame around talking about scams

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and fraud so that we can really understand the full

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scale of the problem and then we can start to

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really implement the right scales.

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Oh absolutely, you know, I was just looking at.

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Somebody. You know, I'm sure you.

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Guys have those nextdoor apps and stuff. I had gotten

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a notification I had commented somebody had posted their experience

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with a scam, and it was that they knew from

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the beginning it was a scam, but they kind of

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just wanted to see what their game was, so they

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engaged to a certain extent and they spelled it out

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in the post.

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And I had just.

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Commented and said, you know, thank you for sharing. It's

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always good to get this information out and just be

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careful with engaging because they can trick you so quickly

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and easily.

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But there were people on.

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There that were saying, who would I can't believe people

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are so dumb to fall for this. And I'm telling you, Patrick,

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it takes all I can do not to just rip

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into those people, because it's like you make a decision

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out of an emotional state and then you come back

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and think about it logically and rationally. I think you're

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somebody else could say the same thing about you exactly,

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And that's what people don't. They just don't think about

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it right, and they don't lead with empathy and you know,

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and they're just very judgmental people.

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And I hate to say it, but you.

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Know, you very well could be the next one on

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this next stoor app that's going to be posted. Well,

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you wouldn't post because you'd be very embarrassed after you've

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just been shaming everybody.

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Well, you know, it's funny. I when I so again.

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I sort of worked in government and then enterprise security,

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and there's this big cybersecurity conference every year. Let me

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tell the story where it's called RSA and it happens

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in San Francisco and cybersecurity people get together and I

227
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remember about ten twelve years ago, you know, at the

228
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time when companies would get hacked, this was still kind

229
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of a new thing. And what people in the cybersecurity

230
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community would do when it company got hacked with they

231
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would go on social media. They go on Twitter and

232
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kind of throw shade at the company and say, oh

233
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my god, I can't believe that company got hacked. What

234
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were they doing? They didn't have their policies figured out,

235
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the program must have been weak. And then at this

236
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RSA conference, the director of the FBI came and he

237
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gave the keynote speech and he said something that was

238
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really important. He said, there's there's two types of companies

239
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in the world, companies that have been hacked and companies

240
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that don't know they've been hacked. And and what that

241
00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:32.480
did is it changed the entire conversation. So now the

242
00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:37.519
cybersecurity community. You know, if you started blaming the victim

243
00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:40.399
of an enterprise attack, it kind of showed that you

244
00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:45.000
didn't really understand how the attackers worked, and that maybe

245
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you weren't educated about how big and important and really

246
00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:51.039
sophisticated this problem had become.

247
00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:57.519
Well you can take that right into scams against you know, individuals,

248
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that's right.

249
00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:00.919
And so I think we're approaching this moment and we

250
00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:04.480
need to turn the tide where if you say, you know,

251
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I can't believe somebody would be that dumb, it actually

252
00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:12.399
kind of says more about you and what you really

253
00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:16.279
know about the nature of this threat than it does

254
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:17.120
about the victim.

255
00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:20.559
Yeah, I mean, you can look at anything with hindsight's

256
00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:25.159
twenty twenty, right, If you already know how the whole

257
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:28.879
situation worked and everything, well, then yeah, sure you could

258
00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:31.919
say you know, yeah, I would do this, But when

259
00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:35.159
you're in the midst of the situation and emotional.

260
00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:37.120
You have no clue what you would do.

261
00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:40.240
Right when you think about it like this, like when

262
00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:45.120
you know, if you're unfortunate enough to be in a

263
00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:48.279
situation I have in my life where your house gets robbed,

264
00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:53.960
you know, awful situation. Your neighbors come over and they say,

265
00:15:53.960 --> 00:15:56.279
Oh my god, what can we do? How can we help?

266
00:15:56.679 --> 00:15:59.960
That's awful. But if you're in a situation where you

267
00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.600
been scammed and money has been stolen from you, the

268
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:06.480
response can't be oh, how could you be so stupid?

269
00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:09.960
You know, we have to change that conversation till the

270
00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:15.159
looks and smells more like blaming the actual perpetrators of

271
00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:19.039
the crime, right, not the people that were the victims of.

272
00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:21.320
It, right, absolutely, you know it's.

273
00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:28.519
Yeah, it's uh, I had something in my head. I

274
00:16:28.519 --> 00:16:31.159
hate it when that happens every now and then it

275
00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:34.200
comes in and then it goes right, it goes right out.

276
00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:36.840
I'll think of it when we get onto another topic here.

277
00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:42.200
But so, you you wrote a book about artificial intelligence,

278
00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:45.440
voice cloning, deepake videos, all of that stuff.

279
00:16:46.840 --> 00:16:48.000
But in the book you.

280
00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:54.399
Say only half a percent of scammers ever face consequences. Yeah, yeah,

281
00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:57.120
And I get that a lot from people, Well, are

282
00:16:57.159 --> 00:16:58.679
they finding these people?

283
00:16:58.840 --> 00:16:59.039
You know?

284
00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:03.639
Are they And actually I just recently listened to somebody

285
00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:07.839
in Arizona that's running for one of the political offices,

286
00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:12.200
and I asked the question, I said, when are we

287
00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:16.640
going to start talking about scams against seniors? And he

288
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:21.319
immediately went into, oh, my gosh, do you know that

289
00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:24.359
the majority of the people that perpetrate this, they've been

290
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:27.759
kidnapped and they're trafficked, and they're over in these other

291
00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:30.799
countries and this is just And I'm sitting there to

292
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:37.359
myself going, yeah, that's awful, But why do you automatically

293
00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:42.160
go there, Why are you not having some empathy for

294
00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:45.319
the people that are in your own backyard that are

295
00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:50.039
losing their life savings? And it's just And I even

296
00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:54.960
brought up education, and they immediately went to, well, yeah, education,

297
00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:58.759
and I'm like, oh my gosh, yeah, I mean I

298
00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:01.759
just I had to sit on my hands.

299
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:06.279
Yeah, I mean, you know, look, the the one of

300
00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:08.599
the things that that you know, I did over the

301
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:11.039
last two years or so is I spent a lot

302
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:15.200
of time looking at the different groups that are behind

303
00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:21.400
these these attacks, and the picture is as complex and

304
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:26.559
varied as you would expect. Right, Sure, there are awful

305
00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:31.240
situations where, you know, particularly this is common in Southeast Asia,

306
00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:35.039
although it's it's moving across geographies where it's all over yeah,

307
00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:37.880
where people that are working in these compounds have been

308
00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:42.039
trafficked and scammed themselves to come to those places thinking

309
00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:44.920
they're getting some great job and they end up you know,

310
00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:48.480
getting you know, having their passport taken and winding up

311
00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:51.680
in some some like windowless cubicle where they're having to

312
00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:58.119
like just scam sixteen. Right. But there's there's there's plenty

313
00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:02.440
of other situations where you've got you know, real organized

314
00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:05.680
crime groups, some that have been around for a long

315
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:10.359
time that have you know, done drug trafficking or human trafficking,

316
00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:13.400
that have now looked at the profits that can be

317
00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:19.720
generated from digital fraud to their yeah, the fraud. Yeah,

318
00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:22.759
and so so there, you know, there are certainly those

319
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:28.160
examples where the scammers have been scammed and they deserve

320
00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:31.640
attention and empathy. But let's not forget that there are

321
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:36.440
also real criminals behind these attacks and they need to

322
00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:40.160
be certainly held to blame and we need to talk

323
00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:43.359
more about how we bring them to justice.

324
00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:46.640
Yeah, you know, and it's it's hard also, I mean

325
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:52.119
the ones that are here in the States, right, they

326
00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:56.160
have and I guess it depends on the country as well,

327
00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:02.359
but they have a better chance of getting caught. Our

328
00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:06.599
law enforcement, our lawyers, judges, all of that. They're very

329
00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:10.559
they're very knowledgeable. They know how to investigate, they know

330
00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:14.599
how to prosecute. They're constantly getting trained in all these

331
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:18.880
new avenues, you know, the cryptocurrency, the artificial intelligence. But

332
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:22.720
a lot of the scams, like you said, are in

333
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.319
some other country at least that's where it initiates, and

334
00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:29.640
that's where the main you know, ring of people are.

335
00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:34.359
So yeah, it's going to be harder because now you

336
00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:37.480
have to then start working with this other country. We

337
00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:40.119
can't just go in and say, hey, we're going to

338
00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:43.200
arrest these people and take this down. You got to

339
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:45.519
work with these other countries, and some of those countries

340
00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:49.359
it's just not top of their radar to want to

341
00:20:49.400 --> 00:20:50.839
shut these places.

342
00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:53.119
Down, and they don't have the resources. And you know,

343
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:54.839
if you look at like a typical like let's just

344
00:20:54.839 --> 00:20:57.519
say a phone call scam, like what may have happened

345
00:20:57.559 --> 00:20:59.839
to my mom or what you talked about, you know

346
00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:05.079
on this channel, you know it was probably initiated in

347
00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:08.240
one country through some and I won't get two technical,

348
00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:11.160
but through some sort of voice over Internet protocol device.

349
00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:14.599
It may then have been you know, transited through a

350
00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:17.160
couple of other countries, a couple other hops before it

351
00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:21.799
actually got onto the US telecommunications infrastructure and was routed

352
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:23.480
to my mom's phone. So, if you think about the

353
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:25.880
law enforcement perspective, they've got to go and work with

354
00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:30.000
every country. It was a transit point, and you got

355
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:33.160
to get you know, sort of the equivalent of international

356
00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:37.519
subpoenas and the alignment across law enforcement agencies, and it's

357
00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:39.680
got to fit with their priorities. As you're saying, they

358
00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:42.799
have to have enough resources to then care enough about it.

359
00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:46.240
And you got to do that in multiple different countries,

360
00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:51.279
across multiple different languages, across multiple different technology providers. And

361
00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:55.400
so it's no wonder that it's so hard to track

362
00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:58.240
these folks down. It's no wonder that, you know, out

363
00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:01.839
of a thousand scams, you know and scammers, a handful

364
00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:04.799
are actually brought to some level of justice.

365
00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:08.000
Every Right, Yeah, it's uh, it's kind of like the

366
00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:13.480
money mule, right, It's it's the money mule with having

367
00:22:14.359 --> 00:22:17.839
not actually well like you said, going through taking that

368
00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:21.319
voice and having it go through all these other countries

369
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:23.480
before it hits the United States telecom.

370
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:27.480
Right, And yeah, so the money, the money is just

371
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:30.279
as hard to follow too, and because it will you know,

372
00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:33.160
it will transit through a variety of different hops in

373
00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:36.880
different countries, across different platforms, and as you say, with mules,

374
00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:39.920
you know, sometimes those mules are totally unsuspected. Sometimes those

375
00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:42.839
meals themselves have been a victimi of scam. Yeah, and

376
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:45.079
so then you you know, law enforcement, you know, has

377
00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:47.079
a situation where they don't actually have a criminal, they

378
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:48.480
just have a victim.

379
00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:49.279
They have a.

380
00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:52.960
Victim, right that got involved in this. And that's something

381
00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:55.720
you know that we talk about, you know, is you

382
00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:59.960
might think you're helping somebody out and unknowingly you're now.

383
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:02.440
Involved in this process.

384
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:02.599
Right.

385
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:08.880
But so, what are your thoughts.

386
00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:13.640
On why the older adults are so heavily targeted?

387
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:18.319
Oh, I'm so there's a you know, there's a trope

388
00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:26.519
out there that says seniors and the elderly are disproportionately

389
00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:32.359
victims of scams because maybe they're not tech savvy, or

390
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:35.359
maybe they're as we talked about before, maybe they're not smart,

391
00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:39.119
maybe they've lost a step, they have some cognitive cognitive

392
00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:43.079
going on, and I would say it's possible, but there's

393
00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:46.400
no research out there that suggests that the reality is

394
00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:53.720
the senior citizens in this country are are disproportionately targeted,

395
00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:57.640
as you said, because senior citizens hold over fifty percent

396
00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:00.799
of the wealth of this country, right, so they make

397
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:02.960
up about twenty percent of the population, but have over

398
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:05.680
fifty percent of the wealth in their retirement savings and

399
00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:08.440
whatever that may be. And so the scammers know that

400
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:12.559
the scammers are simply just going where the money for

401
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:17.359
the money, and so you know, I think that's exactly

402
00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:20.440
what's driving it for scammers. They know there is savings

403
00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:24.440
to be had. There's plenty of research that shows that actually,

404
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:28.039
you know, millennials and gen z win hit with the

405
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:30.920
same style of attack or hit with the same style

406
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:34.759
of scam, will also fall victim. The scammers just know

407
00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:37.279
there's not as much money there going after a teenager

408
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:39.920
or a young twenty something. There's just not as much savings,

409
00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:44.440
and so they will put more resources, more personalization into

410
00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:48.720
going after a senior citizen that has tens hundreds of

411
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:51.480
thousands of dollars in their retirement savings because they know

412
00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:54.200
that's money that they can access if they can crack

413
00:24:54.279 --> 00:24:56.599
that emotional and psychological nut effectively.

414
00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:00.400
Right, Yeah, no, absolutely, And you know you're going to

415
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:04.559
get some because this is a wide like you said,

416
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:07.599
it's twenty percent of the population, but you're getting you're

417
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:10.200
going to get some people that know nothing about technology

418
00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:12.119
in this age group. You're going to get some people

419
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:15.599
that know a lot about technology, that's what they spent

420
00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:19.200
their career in, right, But you're going to get a

421
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:22.880
lot of people on all different you know, throughout that,

422
00:25:24.279 --> 00:25:26.359
and you're going to get some that don't really want

423
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:31.000
to learn anything new and some that are okay, you know,

424
00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:34.200
learning some new stuff. But you know, sometimes I hear

425
00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:39.000
in our presentations when and they're they're not meant to

426
00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:43.759
scare people, They're meant to provide information. And you know

427
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:46.119
what we tell people at the beginning of each is

428
00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:48.799
that you know, this is not a one size fits

429
00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.599
all because we have a thirty six page resource packet

430
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:54.599
that talks about different things that you can do to

431
00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:57.440
protect yourself. And it's not a one size fits all, right,

432
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:03.960
because everybody's person situation is different and their risk adverse

433
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:07.119
is different as well. Some people are like, I don't

434
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:10.000
want to go through the process of doing this because

435
00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:14.119
I'm okay with this risk. Well that's their choice. Yeah,

436
00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:16.559
that's exactly their choice. And the last thing we want

437
00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:18.720
to do is come in there and say no, you

438
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:20.480
have to do this, you have to do this, and

439
00:26:20.519 --> 00:26:22.799
you have to do this, and don't do this, and

440
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:24.559
don't do this and don't do that. You know, it's

441
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:29.039
like being in kindergarten again, right, and you know I'm

442
00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:31.640
in that age category as well, And trust me, I

443
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:34.160
don't want my kids coming to me and telling me

444
00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:36.160
what I can do and what I can't do. Right,

445
00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:40.240
My response would be I was in elementary school and

446
00:26:40.519 --> 00:26:41.960
I abided by the rules.

447
00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:43.000
I was a rule follower.

448
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:47.079
You know. I don't need it almost sixty one years old,

449
00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:50.400
sixty one years of age, someone telling me I can

450
00:26:50.440 --> 00:26:51.599
do this and I can't do that.

451
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:56.279
But I think what you do is so important because

452
00:26:56.519 --> 00:26:59.279
we talk about this in the book that you know once.

453
00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:02.200
We spend a lot of time talking about the problem

454
00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:07.319
and probably you know, scaring folks, hopefully hopefully appropriately. We

455
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.279
do talk about solutions, and you know, a key part

456
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:15.400
of that is how do we how do we ingrain

457
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:19.799
some new rituals and new behaviors in ourselves and our

458
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:23.240
families and as individuals, and a lot of it is

459
00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:29.680
just recognizing that the threat has changed, and you know,

460
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:35.000
we are seniors, are families are a target now in

461
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:38.359
a way that they warn't ten, fifteen, twenty years ago.

462
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:41.839
And it's a big reason you know why I'm I've

463
00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:45.480
sort of moved into the everyday people side of this

464
00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:48.799
and the family side of this is because you know,

465
00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:53.839
there used to be a time when consumer cybersecurity was

466
00:27:54.119 --> 00:27:58.000
actually the big dog. And you know, if you go

467
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:02.599
back in time and Norton and McAfee, these were these

468
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:06.079
companies that were kind of the icons of the early Internet.

469
00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:10.039
And then what happened is enterprises started being targeted, and

470
00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:13.319
a lot of the investment and the focus shifted to

471
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:18.000
how do we protect government and enterprises? As enterprises became

472
00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:21.279
more digital, government became more digital, there was just there

473
00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:25.039
was more for the bad guys to target there. There

474
00:28:25.079 --> 00:28:27.079
was more sort of gold at the end of that

475
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:31.119
rainbow for them. But now what we're seeing is because

476
00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:35.799
AI and you know this is not an indictment of AI.

477
00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:39.480
You know, there's a ton of benefit from that psychology.

478
00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:43.960
But one of the side effects is it has made

479
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:49.680
these bad actors who aim to look like us talk like.

480
00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:52.519
Us, so and it more easier for them like us.

481
00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:56.240
Right, This is what AI does in positive ways and

482
00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:01.200
helps us do things on our behalf, make us more productive. Well,

483
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:05.119
it also helps those who wish to deceive us be

484
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:08.359
more effective and efficient. And so now they can take

485
00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:13.720
those tools and they can target us individuals, families, seniors

486
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:16.640
in a way that they weren't ten or fifteen years ago.

487
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:20.880
And so we do have to recognize that the problem

488
00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:24.519
has shifted or a target like we warn't in the past,

489
00:29:24.839 --> 00:29:28.359
and so we have to find ways to sort of

490
00:29:28.599 --> 00:29:32.839
teach ourselves some new tricks, educate ourselves differently so that

491
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:35.160
we can really rise to the level of defense that

492
00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:35.559
we need.

493
00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:36.119
Yeah.

494
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:39.559
Absolutely, So in you.

495
00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:47.640
Shifting your focus, you came up with you and your brother,

496
00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:51.720
Is that correct? Yeah, came up with a product called

497
00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:53.359
scam Wise.

498
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:54.279
Yeah.

499
00:29:54.920 --> 00:29:56.240
Tell us a little bit more about that.

500
00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:01.839
Yeah. So, so I'm a cyberse security guy. My my

501
00:30:01.960 --> 00:30:06.559
brother Ryan, he is uh five years younger than me.

502
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:10.400
He he's been a consumer products guy. So he has

503
00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:14.759
worked at places like Apple and spotify and build products

504
00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:17.960
that are used by millions of people. And so one

505
00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:21.200
of the things I knew I needed when when sort

506
00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:24.240
of turning my head to this was I'm an enterprise guy,

507
00:30:24.279 --> 00:30:26.880
I'm a government guy. I'm not a consumer guy, and

508
00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:30.319
so I knew I needed some help. And uh, you

509
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:33.279
know who better to turn to, uh in a situation

510
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:37.160
where we're trying to build better digital defense for families

511
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:42.319
than my brother. And we built our first product along

512
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:46.880
with the great team at Savvy, is a free scam

513
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:49.559
checking tool. And again this is this is a piece

514
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:52.559
of the solution, Joyce, not the entire solution, And we

515
00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:54.920
can talk more about how I sort of think about

516
00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:58.359
the role the technology plays alongside education and other things.

517
00:30:58.359 --> 00:31:01.279
But you know, one of the things that we we

518
00:31:01.400 --> 00:31:05.440
found is is sometimes it's hard to ask for a

519
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:07.680
second opinion. You know, there are plenty of seniors and

520
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:10.640
elderly that live alone, or you're caught in a moment

521
00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:15.119
where you're by yourself, you're moving fast, and it's easy

522
00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:16.839
to kind of just get caught up in the moment.

523
00:31:17.079 --> 00:31:20.759
And what we wanted to provide folks is a very

524
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:24.200
simple and easy way to to start to get a

525
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:27.160
second opinion on things, and so scam Wise, which is

526
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:30.119
available at scamwise dot com. It's totally free. You don't

527
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:33.079
have to put in an email address or tell us

528
00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:36.160
who you are, so so it's completely private. We don't

529
00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:39.119
ask you to register or set anything up. And you

530
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:42.920
can you know, take a screenshot of a text message

531
00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:45.599
and submit it that you've gotten. You could forward an

532
00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:49.480
email to submit at scamwise dot com. If you see

533
00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:51.039
an email that's come in and is I don't know

534
00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:54.279
if this is real or not. You can take a

535
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:57.559
picture of physical mail which we see a lot you

536
00:31:57.599 --> 00:31:59.319
got to you got to bill in the mail that

537
00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:02.759
looks like it's coming from you know, your your local

538
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:05.960
government or a medical provider that you thought you made

539
00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:09.839
that copey and you can submit it to scam wise.

540
00:32:10.599 --> 00:32:13.680
What you get back instantly as is a verdict on

541
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:17.680
the suspiciousness of that and some some next steps. And

542
00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:19.559
we will go out and we will check the IP

543
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:22.039
address that email came from, We'll look at the phone number,

544
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:24.319
we'll do a bunch of sort of checks, and we'll

545
00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:30.519
also really analyze the behavior in the message. Because scammers

546
00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:35.519
have their own tells, you know, they play on urgency

547
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:42.160
and fear and love and greed, and they impersonate agencies

548
00:32:42.279 --> 00:32:46.440
and brands and people that we trust. And so, you know,

549
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:49.039
the goal with scam wise was really about can we

550
00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:52.119
just put something out there for the community that they

551
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:56.440
can use to start to practice these behaviors around getting

552
00:32:56.440 --> 00:32:59.720
a second opinion, around verifying, around what you call healthy

553
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:02.519
skill epticism, and put it into play a little bit

554
00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:05.400
in their daily lives all the time. And and it's

555
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:07.839
been it's been great. You know, today we're the we're

556
00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:12.319
the fastest growing scam checker on on in the country.

557
00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:13.200
You know, we see.

558
00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:16.759
Thousands of suspicious messages a day, and you know, we're

559
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:20.119
really proud that we're we're helping people sort of identify

560
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:24.720
potential scams. But also, you know, we we get feedback

561
00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:28.160
sometimes that we've also helped people realize when something is

562
00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:33.759
actually real. We had somebody who left the testimonial last

563
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:36.319
week that said, you know, I had gotten this refund

564
00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:39.680
check and I wasn't sure it was actually a refund check,

565
00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:41.519
and I put it in and it said, you know,

566
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:43.559
this looks legitimate. You know, here's what to do to

567
00:33:43.640 --> 00:33:45.880
make sure. And I did, and it turned out it

568
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:47.640
was a real refund check, so I cashed it. So

569
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:50.119
sometimes it can work both ways. You know, it can

570
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:53.960
help you understand what's bad, but can also help you

571
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:57.480
focus on what might be real and potentially good.

572
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:02.880
So you said a few things. It helps you get

573
00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:07.079
a second opinion, which is good because it makes you

574
00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:11.280
stop and think, and which is going to if you've

575
00:34:11.320 --> 00:34:15.199
got gotten into an emotional state, more chance you're going

576
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:19.239
to get out of that emotional state. But then with

577
00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:23.400
this refund that this person put in and it said

578
00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:28.199
that it actually looked legitimate, here's some next steps. So

579
00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:30.559
what would those next steps have been?

580
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:33.559
You know, typically it sort of depends on what the

581
00:34:34.599 --> 00:34:37.239
actual scam is, but typically it's a version of what

582
00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:43.480
we call sort of a second channel verification. Okay, it's, oh,

583
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:46.559
you've got a text that says Wells Fargo is telling

584
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:49.880
you there's fraud on your account and gives you a

585
00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:54.599
kind of a strange phone number to call back. Well,

586
00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:58.239
instead of calling that number, flip your card over and

587
00:34:58.280 --> 00:35:00.159
call the number on the back of the card and

588
00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:05.599
ask what's going on. It will tell you to Similarly,

589
00:35:05.639 --> 00:35:08.679
if you've gotten an email from a brand that you

590
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:10.440
may have used in the past that looks like it's

591
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:12.280
that maybe it's from Apple. It's saying you need to

592
00:35:12.280 --> 00:35:15.880
reset your credentials. It will point you to the support,

593
00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:20.119
the actual numbers to call back and to verify. So

594
00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:25.960
things like this where it's a second channel verification, give

595
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:28.679
you a reason to sort of pause and not just

596
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:31.559
sort of blindly follow the instructions that are coming at

597
00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:34.400
you in the moment, and to sort of step back

598
00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:37.480
and step out of that moment and find a different

599
00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:41.239
way to verify the communication.

600
00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:49.360
Okay, there's a lot of these types of products out there.

601
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:55.199
I normally don't in all honesty, I normally.

602
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:56.840
Don't pay much attention to them.

603
00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:03.960
And same thing with like surveys that people have.

604
00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:08.159
Take this survey to see whether you're susceptible to falling

605
00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:08.880
for a scam.

606
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:13.400
Yeah, And I'm like, Okay.

607
00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:15.800
So someone scores low and they think that they're good,

608
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:17.719
they're not going to fall for a scam, So they're

609
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:21.079
gonna let their guard down. Yeah, and they're not gonna

610
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:24.119
think about it, and so guess what, They're gonna fall

611
00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:27.079
for a scam. So I don't like those surveys. I

612
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:31.119
know some people use them. I just think it's better

613
00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:33.239
to go in the mindset of anybody.

614
00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:36.519
I don't care how smart you are or whatever.

615
00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:40.559
I always I often say, you know, scammers don't send

616
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:43.079
you an IQ test and then want to see your

617
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:46.239
financials to only go target the people.

618
00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:47.840
On the low end of the IQ and the high

619
00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:50.880
end of the you know, the that has the most wealth.

620
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:55.719
No, now will they will they do stuff on social

621
00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:59.320
media with different things, absolutely, you know, those games, whatever,

622
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:03.679
you know, But it's just really getting people to understand

623
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:08.119
that everybody's a target and everybody can fall victim to

624
00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:14.719
a scam. You're human and you're emotional. But the other

625
00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:17.960
thing with the technology and like with what scam wise

626
00:37:18.039 --> 00:37:20.719
is and I've never really.

627
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:26.719
Use those told people to use them because.

628
00:37:28.159 --> 00:37:31.559
In my opinion, technology is not the end all be all,

629
00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:36.800
Because when you read all of these statistics and you

630
00:37:36.920 --> 00:37:39.360
talk to a lot of different people, the number one

631
00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:44.000
thing they say is social engineering plays a huge part

632
00:37:44.119 --> 00:37:48.280
in scams. Well, social engineering has nothing to do with technology.

633
00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:52.000
You could have the best technology out there, but scammers

634
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:56.079
one will figure out a way around it, or they're

635
00:37:56.119 --> 00:37:58.599
going to use the social engineering to get you to

636
00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:04.480
bypass the technology, right, and so so that's the one

637
00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:07.039
thing or not. The one thing that's one of the

638
00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:10.000
things that I really like about the way you have

639
00:38:10.119 --> 00:38:15.920
set up scam wise is that you understand that and

640
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:20.400
that you're giving them Okay, well this is what our

641
00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:25.960
opinion is. But and based on this is this opinion,

642
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:31.639
you should go verify through these other channels. And so

643
00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:35.559
I really like that because it's getting people one to

644
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:40.079
not rely one hundred percent on the technology, it's getting

645
00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:44.280
a second opinion, but then going out and gathering the

646
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:47.199
information so they can make the decision whether this is

647
00:38:47.320 --> 00:38:49.400
legitimate or or not.

648
00:38:50.119 --> 00:38:55.639
Absolutely. I mean, and look, there's there's we talk about

649
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:57.840
in the book. There was a study that was done

650
00:38:59.039 --> 00:39:04.519
with a group of PhDs who work in AI and

651
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:06.360
they were brought into a room and they were showed

652
00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:10.719
they were shown deep fakes or fake images next to

653
00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:14.440
real images, and their ability to identify what was real

654
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:17.760
or fake. And these are people who live, eat, sleep,

655
00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:22.840
breathe AI was barely better than a coin flip. Okay.

656
00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:26.559
So I don't believe that there are people out there

657
00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:30.400
who just aren't susceptible to scams. I think that's false.

658
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:32.840
It's a false narrative, and we should do nothing to

659
00:39:32.840 --> 00:39:35.519
perpetrate that I'm just as susceptible, and I can tell

660
00:39:35.559 --> 00:39:37.199
you all the stories I have about me, you know,

661
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:41.119
almost falling for scams and how good they are. So

662
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:48.280
this is a wicked problem that requires a multi dimensional solution,

663
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:55.079
and that solution is education, it's technology, it's government regulation,

664
00:39:55.239 --> 00:39:56.719
and we can talk about that whether we want to

665
00:39:56.840 --> 00:39:58.920
or not. But there are things that we need to

666
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:02.239
do to solve this very challenging problem. And I would

667
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:05.719
say technology cannot be the only answer, and certainly scam

668
00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:10.400
Wise doesn't present itself to be the panacea to the problem.

669
00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:14.199
But what I will say is is we do need

670
00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:18.960
better technology coming at this problem, and we need more education,

671
00:40:19.039 --> 00:40:21.360
and we need all more of everything that I just

672
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:25.280
talked about, because I mean, we're losing the battle right now.

673
00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:27.320
I mean, we look at the data. It's off the

674
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:33.559
charts in terms of how much money Americans, how much

675
00:40:33.559 --> 00:40:37.400
hard earned savings Americans are losing, the volume, the sophistication,

676
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:41.280
the dollar, the average dollar amounts, and scam losses continues

677
00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:44.400
to grow. And so we've got work to do on

678
00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:47.199
all fronts here. And part of what we're trying to

679
00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:49.920
do with scam Wise and Savvy is move the ball

680
00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:53.159
forward on the technology front for everyday people. Technology that

681
00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:58.400
has advanced dramatically, for enterprises, big companies, governments. We need

682
00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:02.000
to bring some of that into the family so that

683
00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:05.800
we can arm folks with a little bit more as

684
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:08.639
they as they stand up to these threats. And that

685
00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:12.239
can't exist by itself. It has to sit alongside changes

686
00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:15.320
in behavior, changes in mindset, and change education.

687
00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:16.000
Yeah.

688
00:41:16.039 --> 00:41:19.800
Absolutely, you know it's I really like what you said,

689
00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:22.679
No one thing is the end all be all right.

690
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:27.480
There definitely is a lot more technology stuff that can

691
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:28.039
be done.

692
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:31.719
But you know, it's like it's it's.

693
00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:33.760
Not like you come out with this new technology and

694
00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:35.400
then Okay, that's all we need to do.

695
00:41:35.480 --> 00:41:36.119
We can stop.

696
00:41:36.280 --> 00:41:40.440
No, you got to constantly evaluate it and enhance it.

697
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:43.320
I mean, how many it seems like once a week

698
00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:46.480
we get notification from our mobile phone saying there's an

699
00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:51.239
update available. Right, They're patching security flaws, they're coming up

700
00:41:51.239 --> 00:41:53.280
with new things. The one thing I wish they would

701
00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:57.960
stop doing is changing the way everything is done. You know,

702
00:41:58.159 --> 00:41:59.960
it's like it's like, can you use because it's.

703
00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:02.639
Hard to learn the new behaviors. Then if it's always

704
00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:05.760
sort of moving around and yeah, yeah, I completely agree.

705
00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:08.280
Yeah, yeah, but I guess there's got to be a

706
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:11.840
reason why they do it. Maybe the new technology they're

707
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:15.679
they're implementing it doesn't work obviously the same way the

708
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:16.519
old stuff does.

709
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:18.360
But I mean just knowing.

710
00:42:18.119 --> 00:42:20.079
That, you know, the bad actors are going to be

711
00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:23.679
out there trying to bypass you know, that technology, but

712
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:29.599
the education right around it and in government regulations. When

713
00:42:29.599 --> 00:42:32.039
these people do get caught, they get sentenced to like

714
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:33.840
seven to ten years and they're out in three to

715
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:34.920
five on good behavior.

716
00:42:35.320 --> 00:42:35.920
What are they doing.

717
00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:37.960
They're going right back into this because they know where

718
00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:39.440
they can make millions of dollars.

719
00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:45.239
Yeah, yeah, but you know the you remember the Nigerian

720
00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:48.119
prints kind of email scams of sort of like the

721
00:42:48.199 --> 00:42:52.440
late nineties and early two thousands, and your audience may

722
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:54.760
remember those, you know, when when sort of free email

723
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:57.880
came out Hotmail and Yahoo and things like that, these

724
00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:02.000
scams started to come and you know the reason why

725
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:07.039
those scams sort of stopped working in that form. Sure,

726
00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:09.679
there were some technology changes. In fact, the email providers

727
00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:12.320
did some interesting things to do a better job of

728
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:15.719
sort of understanding what was scams and spams, But really

729
00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:21.639
it was because as a society, we educated ourselves about

730
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:24.920
those scams, and they became like the punchline on like

731
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:27.880
late night TV talk show hosts, and like everybody kind

732
00:43:27.880 --> 00:43:31.440
of talked about it and understood what that scam looked like,

733
00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:33.880
what it sounded like, and they talked about it with

734
00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:36.480
each other, became kind of a joke like, and that's

735
00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:39.760
how we beat that scam. And the challenge we have

736
00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:43.840
now is that with this technology, the scammers are iterating

737
00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:46.400
so fast and there isn't just like this this sort

738
00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:49.559
of one scam that we have to figure out. It's

739
00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:52.920
it's really the entire way that these scammers work. And so,

740
00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:55.719
you know, we're not going to be successful if we

741
00:43:55.840 --> 00:44:01.000
don't have, you know, a rapid educational system constantly learning,

742
00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:04.000
constantly trying to understand and unpack what's happening here and

743
00:44:04.039 --> 00:44:07.119
teaching people new tips and tricks for how to deal

744
00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:12.239
with it, alongside a rapidly innovating technology ecosystem that's also

745
00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:14.559
helping to provide an additional layer of protection.

746
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:22.039
Absolutely right, It's yeah, it's it's crazy. We've got about

747
00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:26.920
five minutes or five minutes left, So is there anything

748
00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:28.320
else that you want to.

749
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:33.679
Talk about with maybe scam wise or.

750
00:44:35.719 --> 00:44:39.559
Yeah, sure, so you know scam wise, I would just say,

751
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:42.639
you know, I use it all the time. I think

752
00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:45.039
for your for your viewers and your listeners to the

753
00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:48.960
extent it's helpful. There's plenty of ways to submit data

754
00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:51.920
to it at scam wise dot com. I would say,

755
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:55.800
you know, more than that, I'm I'm really excited to

756
00:44:55.840 --> 00:44:58.519
be working with you know, a new set of partners

757
00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:01.400
and to really understand this ECO says them, and and

758
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:04.800
working with folks like you to to bring the broader

759
00:45:04.920 --> 00:45:10.679
picture forward around the level of problem that we have

760
00:45:10.760 --> 00:45:13.599
in this country. And and I do think that there

761
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:18.840
are there's a role for smarter policies here and and

762
00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:23.320
we we have to to resource this problem effectively with

763
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:28.800
more education in our law enforcement. We need more folks

764
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:32.079
who understand how these attacks work and can respond to them.

765
00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:38.840
We need different laws that that sort of categorize, uh,

766
00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:42.280
these perpetrators and these criminals in the right way and

767
00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:45.039
that allow us to prosecute them in a more efficient way.

768
00:45:46.119 --> 00:45:50.440
And and you know, we need more responsibility for the

769
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:56.599
big tech platforms that are trafficking this content to us.

770
00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:00.679
And yeah, absolutely, you know they some of them do

771
00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:03.639
a better job at weeding out. But I can't tell

772
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:07.880
you how many I know there's scam fake profiles on

773
00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:10.599
Facebook that I get friend requests from all the time,

774
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:15.159
and I'm just delete, delete, delete. And and now that

775
00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:17.559
I've mentioned Facebook and we're on this is going to

776
00:46:17.599 --> 00:46:21.599
be out there. I hope they don't shut the account down.

777
00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:23.639
I got shut down about a year ago for like

778
00:46:23.719 --> 00:46:27.840
three months, and it was just like, come on, guys,

779
00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:33.000
we talk about how to prevent scams, you know. But anyways,

780
00:46:33.159 --> 00:46:33.800
you know that's.

781
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:37.920
What I mean. And look, we need we need real

782
00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:43.800
partners in this. And and look that the technology platforms

783
00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:49.159
have a variety of incentives that they're they're juggling. But

784
00:46:49.159 --> 00:46:53.800
but you know, without a doubt, the initial contact from

785
00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:59.559
scammers now is made almost in the majority of cases

786
00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:02.559
on social media, especially for the highest dollar scams that

787
00:47:02.599 --> 00:47:04.679
we see now, it will intersect with phone calls or

788
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:07.119
text messages or over to what's happened, whatever it is.

789
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:11.159
But but there's a role that social media platforms can

790
00:47:11.360 --> 00:47:14.599
play in helping to police this content better. There's a

791
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:18.199
role that telecommunications companies and our carriers can play and

792
00:47:18.199 --> 00:47:23.920
helping absolute So everybody's got skin in this game here,

793
00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:26.360
and and and you know this is what I like

794
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:29.840
to say about uh digital fraud, and and you know

795
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:34.440
in AI, there's a it would be hard to get

796
00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:38.280
consensus around whether AI is going to save us or

797
00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:40.559
destroy us or or I.

798
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:44.559
Think it's still too new to figure it out.

799
00:47:44.480 --> 00:47:47.320
Too new, So I we don't need to all agree

800
00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:51.280
on on what the future impact of AI is to

801
00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:54.880
agree on there's a real problem happening right now. And

802
00:47:54.920 --> 00:47:57.440
it doesn't necessarily mean that AI is good or bad,

803
00:47:57.760 --> 00:47:59.639
but it's a side effect, it's a downside.

804
00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:02.320
It's dark, it is and we have to look at that.

805
00:48:02.440 --> 00:48:04.360
And we have to look at that. So let's let's

806
00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:05.840
we can all agree this is a problem. This is

807
00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:07.440
the problem that affects all of us. I don't care

808
00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:10.519
what your politics are, I don't care where you're from. Right,

809
00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:14.599
so we can kind of hold hands as a country,

810
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:18.199
as a culture and and and wade into this problem.

811
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:20.360
And it would be good for us, because I promise

812
00:48:20.440 --> 00:48:22.239
you this isn't going to be the last problem from

813
00:48:22.280 --> 00:48:25.239
technology or the last problem from AI. Right, So let's

814
00:48:25.239 --> 00:48:27.880
get let's get a little bit of muscle memory and

815
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:30.159
working together to solve these big problems.

816
00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:34.360
Yeah, No, absolutely, you know, and you know a lot

817
00:48:34.400 --> 00:48:39.000
of times when I'm looking at new policies right that

818
00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:41.960
they're looking especially in the state of Arizona, right and

819
00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:45.079
they're doing a lot with like deed fraud here and stuff,

820
00:48:45.079 --> 00:48:47.639
and I look at the ones that are you know,

821
00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:50.239
the bills that go in there, and I'm like, well,

822
00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:53.960
that's that's not going to stop it because the scammer's

823
00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:55.480
just going to do this. And that's where I think

824
00:48:55.480 --> 00:49:01.079
a lot of policy makers they whether I don't think

825
00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:03.320
they realize it until after the fact, but they just

826
00:49:03.320 --> 00:49:04.119
put a band aid on.

827
00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:05.440
The situation totally.

828
00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:09.639
You have to look at it and go, Okay, well,

829
00:49:09.679 --> 00:49:11.760
if I want to do this, then how are the

830
00:49:11.800 --> 00:49:15.519
scammers going to get around it? Yeah, you kind of

831
00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:17.360
have to go back to the initial point, right. I

832
00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:19.440
don't know if I ever shared with you our anatomy

833
00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:20.119
of a scam.

834
00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:22.440
Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.

835
00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:25.519
We just got early on got really we were always

836
00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:27.760
behind the eight ball trying to talk about all these

837
00:49:27.800 --> 00:49:30.199
different scams. And it was like we and one of

838
00:49:30.199 --> 00:49:32.760
my advisory board members, a brilliant guy, is the one

839
00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:36.760
that came up with this, you know, we you know,

840
00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:39.280
we just got to talk about scams in general and

841
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:42.039
how they operate. And so I think we've done an

842
00:49:42.079 --> 00:49:46.639
awesome job at figuring that out and really getting you know,

843
00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:48.320
these older adults to understand it.

844
00:49:48.519 --> 00:49:53.159
To understand it, and giving them simple, giving language.

845
00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:53.559
Exactly the.

846
00:49:55.239 --> 00:49:57.719
Empowering them to be able to say, I can do this,

847
00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:00.800
I don't have to throw away all my technolo, I

848
00:50:01.239 --> 00:50:03.239
can use this. I feel safe, I know what I'm

849
00:50:03.280 --> 00:50:04.559
going to do, right Yeah, And.

850
00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:07.360
That point maybe that's just the last point real quick

851
00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:11.599
is is you know, in cybersecurity we talk about there's

852
00:50:11.639 --> 00:50:14.800
this type of attack called a d DOSS, a denial

853
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:18.719
of service attack where you know, a hacker will go

854
00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:21.360
to a website and try to throw so much traffic

855
00:50:21.400 --> 00:50:24.679
at it, malicious traffic at it, that good traffic can't

856
00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:27.039
get in and the website is sort of knocked offline.

857
00:50:27.239 --> 00:50:30.360
Right Yeah, I think what's happening right now, what we're

858
00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:33.760
at risk of is we're getting hit with so much stuff,

859
00:50:34.119 --> 00:50:37.679
so much noise, so much scams that the risk for

860
00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:39.800
us is that we take our digital devices and we

861
00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:42.679
throw them in the trash and we step away, and

862
00:50:42.679 --> 00:50:45.480
we're kind of denied the service and the power and

863
00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:49.159
the potential of technology. I think the better answer is no,

864
00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:51.280
how do we create a world where we can sort

865
00:50:51.320 --> 00:50:54.400
of safely wait into the digital numbers and preserve the

866
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:56.880
promise of what it has for all of us in

867
00:50:56.920 --> 00:50:59.320
good ways and mitigate the downside?

868
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:04.039
Absolutely So, Patrick, thank you so much for coming on.

869
00:51:04.400 --> 00:51:10.760
And I'm looking forward to more conversations and uh online

870
00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:14.840
and offline as well. So, but I do have time

871
00:51:14.920 --> 00:51:17.039
running over a little bit. One's going to come on

872
00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:19.119
here in a minute and say you're over time.

873
00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:22.119
So thank you, Joyce, thank you for the work that

874
00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:24.760
you do and and really appreciate the opportunity to talk

875
00:51:24.800 --> 00:51:25.159
to you here.

876
00:51:25.480 --> 00:51:28.239
Yeah, no, thank you again. Patrick. Take care all right,

877
00:51:28.280 --> 00:51:28.920
take care.

878
00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:33.199
All right everyone, Thank you for joining in. Wow, lots

879
00:51:33.239 --> 00:51:40.440
of great information, especially the Patrick's on the same page

880
00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:42.719
as as we are. You know, it's it takes a

881
00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:45.519
lot of different roles and to try to make this,

882
00:51:46.199 --> 00:51:49.480
to try to put a dent in these scams. Don't

883
00:51:49.480 --> 00:51:51.800
forget to go to our website at Roseadvocacy dot org.

884
00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:54.039
You'll find all our social media channels, scroll down to

885
00:51:54.079 --> 00:51:57.199
the bottom, sign up for the email or the mailed newsletter,

886
00:51:57.480 --> 00:52:00.440
and don't forget to hit subscribe. So you get notifications

887
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:02.119
as to what the topics are.

888
00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:02.840
Going to be next week.

889
00:52:03.519 --> 00:52:06.000
Brian Watson will be back with you guys next week,

890
00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:08.239
and then I'll be back the week after that.

891
00:52:09.719 --> 00:52:11.840
Take care and see you in a couple of weeks.

892
00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:12.239
Thank you.

893
00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:17.000
Well, that's all the knowledge for this episode. Tune in

894
00:52:17.159 --> 00:52:21.239
every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on KFOURHD Radio

895
00:52:21.400 --> 00:52:25.480
at KFOURHD dot com as Joyce explores a variety of

896
00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:29.119
knowledge so you have the power to make scam protection

897
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:33.280
your healthy habit, and until then, feel free to reach

898
00:52:33.320 --> 00:52:36.119
out to Joyce and let's talk about scams.