My almost scam experience

0:01 This program is designed to provide general information with regards to the subject matters covered. This information is given with the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas. The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references. However, Rose Resources outreach to safeguard the elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam. Let's talk about scams. It's the must listen show for anyone who wants to protect themselves and their loved ones from scams. Every Tuesday am Pacific time on K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose, and her guests will provide valuable insights and practical tips on how to recognize and protect yourself from scams. And now here is your host, Joyce Petrowski.

1:19 Good morning, everybody, my name is Brian Watson. I'm a community outreach specialist for Rose Resources Outreach to safeguard the elderly. Joyce is going to be back next week, so appreciate you all watching and listening to our radio show while Joyce has been out for a few weeks, and I really appreciate the opportunity, So thank you for tuning in to Let's talk about scams. This week, we have a guest who's going to share her scam experience, and so we've titled this show My Almost Scam Experience because it's a pretty scary story but is a very positive ending and there's a lot of lessons to be learned. So this week's guest is Rachel Mullis. She was contacted by a real life scammer here in the United States and they are very believable and they had her on the path to stealing her money. So she's going to share her story today. She's going to talk about the warning signs and what eventually changed her mind. And after read reading her story that she shared with me, it's amazing that she didn't fall for it, because like ninety nine percent of people could have fallen for this one. It was done extremely well. So let's bring Rachel on. Hello, Good morning, Rachel, how are you doing this morning?

2:46 Hi Brian, good thanks thanks for having me. So the first thing I'm just going to say off the top is I really appreciate you sharing your story. The easiest thing would be to not tell anybody, because you know, there's this this fear like, oh, I'm I made a mistake and I'm you know, it's there's a level of embarrassment sometimes, but we're all into no victim shaming and in this case, you were not a victim. You won, you didn't fall for the scam, and you're so brave to tell your story, and thank you very much. Yeah, sure, my pleasure. I will say that's real.

3:29 I've known Rachel's husband for a long time and he had told me what had happened, and I listened and I said, do you think she'd be willing to share her story on the Let's Talk About Scams podcast radio show? And her husband said, let me ask, and then right away he got back to me and said, she'll do it. So we finally found a date that worked and today we're going to tell the story. So, Rachel, how are you contacted with this scam. How did it all start? You know, It's just in the middle of the day. We have two kids, which we homeschool, and I was home and busy with them, and the phone ring and the caller, I d said the Pma County Sheriff's Department.

4:13 So immediately you kind of jump to worst case scenario, is something wrong with my husband, my parents, you know, what's going on? So I answered the phone and and they. Were there, so and what did uh? How what did this person say? You know, he just identified himself as a police officer. He gave me his badge number. He asked me to double check the phone number, which maybe that was kind of weird, but just said, you know, you can see that this is the Pema County Sheriff's Department. You can you know, google it and make sure this is the right number, which it was, and just told me, you know, he was he was calling on behalf of or because I had mystery duty federal jury duty, and he was calling to follow up with that.

5:03 How did you describe his tone, his voice, his attitude. Yeah, I mean I just I would say, like a stereotypical police officer. I mean, he seemed very calm, and confident. You know, he spoke English, So I think I had this idea maybe that all scammers have, you know, are from another country. But his English was perfect, and yeah, I believed him that he was a police officer. So and then so he claimed you didn't show up for jury duty? What what was going to be the next step? Well, I mean, of course, I apologized. I didn't remember ever getting a jury duty summons in the mail. He told me that this was for federal jury duty, and so I had signed the letter had come certified mail, and so I thought, I think I would remember a certain letter in the mailbox. But he told me the date that it was signed on, you know, it was several months earlier. And so I went and looked in my calendar and I thought, well, I was home that day.

6:11 Maybe I signed it and I forgot. I don't know, we have a lot of stuff going on. It seems weird that I would forget, but maybe I did, you know. So I act, I asked if I could just have a minute. I went down stairs to my desk and I was just rifling through all my old papers, like do I have a jury duty summons that I missed? You know? But I didn't find anything. So I went back up there and I told him and it didn't think i'd ever received it. And he said, occasionally what happens is like if my husband was home, he could have signed for it, and maybe that's what happened. And then he just forgot to give me the jury duty summons. So he did. Did he say there was a warrant out for your arrest?

6:54 He did, so that kind of came a little bit later, but he did say that the judge so, and I guess I had been summoned like two days before. He called me and he said the judge, and he gave me her name and I wrote down. But she was a real judge in p mc County. She uh is a real stickler for people that misstery duty. And so she had called out my name twice and I didn't respond. So there were now two warrants out for my arrest. One was for failure to appear in court and the other one was for contempt of court.

7:35 Wow. Now he also had your correct home address? Is that right? Yes? He did. He verified it with a certified mail. He said, you know what, this is the address that we have where the certified mail, Uh, where it was signed and delivered? And is this your correct address? And I said, well, yeah, it was my right address. Wow. So right off the top the caller I D says p MC County Share Department and they have your correct address. So it really builds the credibility of their scam. And at that point you were, you were believing it one hundred percent. You know, it just seems so weird. I mean, I think the fact that there would be a warrant out for my arrest for missing jury duty for the first time in my whole life. I mean, I have been I've served on jury's before. It seemed extreme to me.

8:27 But I think the thing that was convincing to me is that he was a police officer. And I just think for myself, like I have no reason not to trust a police officer, you know, I just thought he must. He reassured me several times that he's done this many times before, and he knows that it can be, you know, surprising when people find out what the consequences are for missing jury duty, and I think I just I don't know, I just trusted him, so I thought he. Was At a certain point, did did you ask to speak to your husband. I did, yes, so you know that part kind of came after he so I. So, he said, because I had this warrant out for my arrest, I had two options.

9:15 Basically I had to stay on the phone with him, and I could post bail. Essentially, so one ticket had a fine of five thousand dollars and another ticket had a fine of two thousand dollars. And so if I posted bail and then I showed up at my court date to like explain why I'm ass tery duty, then I would get the money back. But if I were to hang up the phone with him at any point, he said, then it's basically like I'm denying bail or I'm I'm refusing to cooperate with the police. So at that point then the police would be dispatched to my house to arrest me. And so he just I asked if I could hang up the phone to call my husband and just talk this over with him, because it felt so bizarre and now I owe seven thousand dollars, you know, to post bail, and he the scammer, basically said no, I cannot contact my husband. And I said, well, why can't I call him? I don't understand, and he said, well, because we need to make sure that you know, sometimes people like in a in a case like say I knew what case I was going to be on, which I didn't, but there could be people there that would intimidate the jurors, you know. And so if they if they had intimidated me into not showing up to jury duty because they knew I don't know somehow how I

10:47 would vote or something like that, then my husband then would now be a part of the crime, of the of the crime, I guess, and there would be a warrant out for his rest as well. So it doesn't make like a whole lot of sense, but he was very confident that this is how it works. Like if I tell my husband now he is also complicit in me missing jury duty, or maybe he's the one that pressured me to miss jury duty, and so he is going to be arrested too. So it kind of felt, it felt confusing, like it just seemed a spiral out of control very quickly. But he did always have answers for everything I brought up. He knew what to say.

11:30 And again, I have never I'd never been arrested. I've never been in trouble with the law. I thought maybe this was on me, like I was the ignorant one that I didn't understand how this worked. Now now I see clearly that he you know, he was taking advantage of me. But that was the that was how it played out. Well, and that's the thing. You You raised a lot of concerns, You raised a lot of questions, but he had an answer for everything. And then you also said that he. Brought up the fact that if both you and your husband went to jail, that Child Protective Services would have to take your kids. How did that come up in the conversation.

12:14 Well, then he said, he said, also, he goes, I have to ask, since is anyone else at home with you? And I said, well, we have our children are here, and he said, well, he goes. You know, ma'am, I hate to tell you this, but there have been instances I know of where both the husband and wife have gone to jail and then DPS or CPS has coming and had to take the children because where else where else are they going to go if both the parents are in jail. And I think that at that point, I mean, this has been building. I mean this like a three hour ordeal. Maybe I was very long.

12:56 It was exhausted, right, So. It's kind of been building and building, building up until this point, and I think at this point now I'm feeling very overwhelmed, like I do not understand what is happening. Now they're saying my husband could go to jail, my kids could go to deep CPS, and I'm all because I missed jury duty. And it just seemed like outlandish. But again, he said he was a police officer, and I felt like he was convincing me that I just didn't understand these things, you know, and he was right, He's done it many times, you know. So did you end up talking to more than one caller?

13:39 I did. I think he was honestly getting really frustrated with me because I kept like asking him to explain it better. It just again, it just seemed so outlandish that all this was happening because I missed jury duty. And so he said, well, would you like to speak to my supervisor? And I said I think I would. Yeah, So he puts like, I don't know his supervisor on the phone. And he was a really nice guy too. He was he was friendly but also very reassuring. Like, oh, I understand. This does seem crazy, doesn't it, Rachel? You know, but I promise you this is normal. This is what happens. And then he kind of took me through the rest of the ordeal.

14:22 So so then now they want the money. How you're finding yourself driving to go pay money? How did what happened next? Oh my gosh, I still can't believe I did this. Watch this is what happened. So so he told me, like, you know, he said, I'm going to stay on the phone with you. Well, first of all, he asked what kind of car I drove and and how many miles were on it. So I asked again, like, why do you need to know this? This doesn't make sense to me. And he said, well, you know how in jury due do you get reimbursed for mileage? Which is true. He said, you get reimbursed for mileage for this kind of thing. And I was like, well, I said, I don't feel comfortable giving you that information. So I said, how do I know? I said, you know, I'm going to go get seven thousand dollars out of the bank, and you know what kind of car I drive and where I'm going?

15:15 How do I know you're not going to rob me, you know, And he said, oh, ha ha, A good point. He goes, I've never had anyone say that before he goes, you don't have to give me your your type of car, and so I was like, okay. So anyway, so he stayed on the phone with me the whole way I drove to the bank. He told me when I got there to to the teller. I was not to talk. I was not to tell the teller anything about what was going on because then she too would be complicit and could possibly go to jail. And so I was to go in I was supposed to. He was on speaker phone while I drove because he insisted on being safe, right, so hands free, So he just wanted to be on speakerphone in the car, which she was. And then same thing at the bank, and then uh, I do think the teller probably could tell I was really stressed. I do think she was kind of trying to ask me some questions, but I just played it cool. You know. Again, this now we're probably at about I would say like the two to three out two. I don't know the whole thing took at least I would say three and a half hours, so we're probably at like the two hour mark, I don't know, two and a half hour work of just being on the phone with this guy and just you can't even really think, you know. I mean, they're just constantly talking, constantly giving you directions. And I think for me that was that kind of helped helped

16:50 them because I wasn't even able really to process. I was trying to think logically about it all, but there wasn't a lot of time too, you know. So anyway, so I got the money out of the bank. He told me where to deposit it. He said, they have these like bail he had a funny name for it, but basically a bail collection office all over town. So he asked me where, like he told me one that was going to was close to my house and it was at the Safeway in the Safeway shopping center. And so I thought, okay, well, I've never noticed a bail collection office, but I didn't know what they looked like. Either had no idea. So I got to the Safeway and he said where or I said, Okay, I'm here, Like where do I go? I thought it was the bank or something in the Safeway And then he told me it was the coin star machine, and I thought, the coinstar machine. What in the world this again, this does not make sense, like why would I why would they collect bail in a coinstar machine? And so he said again that it was to protect to give protect people's privacy and make them so it's not as embarrassing, like if they obail bail for something, they can just you know, do it this way and nobody has to know.

18:16 And then he said I would be given my own account number to put the money in, and then it would I would get because it was in my account, I would get it back. That's how they would know it was mine, and I would get it back after I showed up to court. So I will say too, I off I several times I thought about just driving straight to the police station because it's not too far from there, And every time I brought it up, he said, well you can, but they're going to arrest you as soon as you walk in there. Wow. And so again it was just like so much kind of fear and manipulation and just you know, I don't know. My head was just spinning and thinking like what is happening?

19:00 Like a movie, right, right? So right, you walk into the grocery store with seven thousand dollars and you're told to go go to the coinstar machine. Did they give you an account number or a QR code? They give me an account number, okay for me to put the money in. So and then you got all the way to the machine. I did. I was. I was so nervous, like I just I just kept thinking, he knows where I am, he knows I have cash. But again, you know, again, it's just this weird dichotomy kind of Oh but he's a police officer, and I'm supposed to trust police officers. Like a police officer wouldn't do anything, you know, I wouldn't try to steal my money, you know. So anyway, So yeah, so I got there and I started putting in the account number or whatever, and the main screen that pops up says, law enforcement will never ask you to depose money in a Coinstar machine.

20:02 And so I read that out loud to him. I said, but wait, it says right here, you will never ask me to do this, And he said, oh, well, that's just you know, I don't even remember, but he had some kind of thing like just to that's for other situations. Not this situation. This situation is fine, you know, And so I started, I like stood there forever, like I just yeah, I just stood there. And I said to him, I said, how do I know this isn't a scam. This feels so much like a scam. And he said, well, I've given you my name too. He goes look up my name, you know, And so I googled his name and he is a It was the name of a Pima County officer. And so I thought, again, just this like war in my head of like this seems so wrong, but yet I don't know he's telling me that he's a police officer. So I finally I just said, you know, I cannot do this. I am going to take my chances and go to the police station if there really is a warrant out for my arrest, Like every red flag is going off in my brain and I have to pay attention to that. I can't just keep denying this and trusting you. So I said, I'm gonna take my chances. I'm going to go to the police station and talk to them directly. And he got so mad.

21:22 He started swearing. It was like a light switched. He started swearing at me. He called me all kinds of names, and I just got scared and I hung up the phone, and I thought, well, clearly he was not a police officer. You know, now if there was any doubt, that doubt is gone. And so I just like ran to my car essentially and locked all the doors and started driving home, you know, And I was say, I did call. I called my husband. He was not available right then, but I so I called our friends whose husband was a police officer, and I just told him the story. And he was very much like, that was a scam. You know, we do not there is if you ever missed tree duty.

22:09 They will notify you by mail, which I didn't know. They will not ever send a police officer to your house for missing Jerry duty. And the fine, if there even is a fine, the fine is always less than five hundred dollars. It would never be like seven thousand dollars. So don't quote me on the fine part. But I know for sure they'll let you know by mail. A police officer won't come and arrest you. So he was reassuring. I gave him the information of what had happened, and I had taken like a screenshot of the coinstar machine that had my account on it, you know, or the account number I was sending the money to. So I gave him all of that information and then, you know, and that was kind of the end of it.

22:56 So wow, think about this. Understand why this scammer was so upset because he had devoted yeah to plus three hours and he could almost feel that seven thousand dollars in his hands, and you bailed out at the last minute for a variety of reasons that Do you think that sign on the screen was the final thing that changed your mind or was just a culmination of multiple things. Well? Probably I think that was like the straw that broke the camel's back, you know. I mean I just think I'm so glad that was there. Had that not been there, I might have gone ahead and done it, you know.

23:41 But again, it was just another red flag, like this does not make sense, you know. So, and were you on the phone the entire time. With him the entire time? Yeah, So he'd never let. You, you know, catch your breath, you know, take a pause, because you know, one of the big things that we have at Rose is we have an infographic that's called the anatomy of a anatomy of a scam, and it's three parts. It talks about you're contacted out of the blue. In your case, Rachel, you've got a phone call at home. You're given a compelling reason to act. In this case, you miss jury duty, you owe money, and then then they always want money. So in this case, they told you to withdraw money from your bank account and go down to a Coinstar account at the grocery store. You hit all three and then the thing we show in the middle is urgency. You know, he didn't say pay this money, but do it within the next three days.

24:46 He wanted to have you do it immediately. And the reason why they do that is so that you don't get to talk to a husband, a friend, or in this case, you know a police officer that you know in town. It's absolutely amazing. Now, Well, the thing I just caught you saying, it really caught my attention. When you went out to the parking lot, you locked the doors to your car and you mentioned that. Why, Well, because, like I said. I felt really scared that they were watching me at the grocery store waiting and if I don't know if that was logical if they were in town. I know, most scammers do tend to be out of town, you know, in these big scam centers or things like that. But yeah, I just I felt vulnerable. I think.

25:31 That's absolutely They knew your home address, they knew which story you're going to, so they literally could have had you under surveillance, and especially when you didn't follow through at their commands, they may have just changed their minds and just did a robbery. So that's absolutely scary. Now looking back now with the hindsight of time and not have being on the phone them, what were the warning signs now that you look back that jump out at you. Yeah, you know, I think like not being able to tell anyone, you know, that should have been a that should have been a huge red flag, and it was, but it should have been I wish I would have paid attention to that more and just been like, of course I'm talking to my husband, of course I'm going to call a friend, I'm gonna check with my police officer friend or you know. Yeah, so I think again, you know, it's if that idea I think of like a you know, like a lion hunting herd of antelope.

26:37 Let's say, like they always drive the one off by themselves, right, because the one that's by themselves is easier to get to, you know. And so when scammers, you know, can separate you from whoever my children, my husband, my family, my friends, you're just way more vulnerable. So I would say that that was a big red flag looking back, that I wish I just would have. You know, my husband too, he was like, I would have gone to jail with you. It was totally fine. I would have gone to jail. Oh what a what a good guy. Now, Rachel, Have you shared this story with your family and friends? Yeah? I have, Yeah, and that and that's important because you know, a lot of times when something like this happens to someone, they tend to just clam up and and don't share it.

27:30 It is important that you you share it with others because that's the only way we're going to stop these scammers. They're not going anywhere anytime soon. And that's why you sharing your story today. And let's talk about scams. Someone's going to watch this and they're going to get that Jerry scam call and they're going to say. Uh uh uh huh, that's not right. But this one was executed very well. I mean, I'm actually kind of impressed, you know, in a way that they had an answer for everything. And they've obviously used this scam before. You weren't the first person that they called no, And so it's again thank you for sharing your story. What is what advice would you have for people out there that when when it comes to something like this, you've gone through it, what's your advice?

28:27 You know? I think I would just say to trust your instincts, you know. I mean I think a lot of times that is correct. You know. We we kind of sense sometimes if we're in danger or we have a feeling like this isn't quite right, you know, And I think I would trust that. I would go with your gut if you feel it's not right, I would. I would. I would listen to that, you know, and and not discount that right. No, And that's important and thank you. You know what, when I do presentations and I tell people, if you get on the phone with someone, it's okay to lie to them, and because they're lying to you, so I always say you can lie to the scammer. So all of us need to have a lie in the back of our mind. That we can use and just almost practice it. Just say, you know what, I got someone at the door, I got food on the stove, I have company right now, I have a doctor's appointment. And the funny thing is I told people this one time, and I was at a church, and then I kind of caught the irony of telling people they can lie in a church, and they got to chuckle out of it.

29:50 But it's you know, because here's the deal. We're all going to get these scam calls at one time or another, and we have to be prepared and the only way where we are prepared is by talking about it and just having a plan in our mind. So this was absolutely amazing. Rachel. Your advice is amazing. I'm so glad that you're willing to share your story. It's going to help somebody. And like I said, it's very brave to go on here because a lot of people would sit there and say, you know what, Oh, I almost fell first scam. I'm not going to talk about it, but in your case, you did, so thank you very much. Sure, yeah, I mean that. Like I said at the beginning, there is an element of shame, like how could I be so stupid? You know to not listen to myself, to not tell anybody, but I think you know, I have told several friends and all of them, all and my family too, all of them said like, thank you for telling us, because because now we know right like that that could happen. And so yeah, I am yeah, Ie.

31:00 It made me a little wiser in it, you know, for the next time, and maybe help someone else too. So one of the one of the things I always say at my presentations is it can happen to all of us, and if it can happen to a smart person like you, it literally can happen to all of us. So that that's what gets rid of the stigma of scammers is very smart people thought for scams. Rachel, I'm going to give you the last word. Is there anything I didn't ask you about, or any part of your story that that you wanted to share before we close out today's episode? You know, I I don't think so. I you know, just one other thing and you maybe know the statistics.

31:44 But another thing that helped me feel a little bit better is so I looked up statistics. I'm like, how much money scammers take every year. It's shocking, you know, And and you know, the other thing was sharing my story then to other people would be like, oh, well, I know somebody who actually did give thirty and a lot more money. I mean, seven thousand dollars is relatively small compared to some of these other scams where they take, you know, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars from people. So it is a real problem. So anyway, I hope this can help someone. Yeah, the numbers don't lie. They're absolutely staggering. And I've met people that have lost as little as two hundred dollars, and I've met people that have lost over millions of dollars.

32:33 And it affects It affects people equally, and. It's awful. And we're not going to eliminate the scammers because it's just too profitable, but we can dry up the pool of victims by talking about it and normalizing it and sharing information. So Rachel, thank you once again. You did a great job. I appreciate your time and I look forward to seeing you around town in the near future. Thankesome, and everybody out there, thank you for tuning in today to let's talk about scams. Remember to go to Rosadvocacy dot org and please sign up for our newsletter. We send it out at the beginning of each month. It's full of great information and it's just something we need to be aware of and have in the back of our minds all the time, just being prepared mentally for when those scammers call. So please sign up. We will be back next week. It'll be Joyce Petrowski back and I get to take a break for a few weeks until my next show. So thank you all for tuning in today and we'll see you next week.

33:41 Hie. Well, that's all the knowledge for this episode. Juni in every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on KFOURHD Radio at KFOURHD dot com as Joyce explores a variety of knowledge so you have the power to make scam protection your healthy habit. Until then, feel free to reach out to Joyce and let's talk about scams.