Sept. 23, 2025

Deeper Dive Into Pig Butchering Scams

Deeper Dive Into Pig Butchering Scams
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Season 1

Erin West and Dr. Martina Dove are back to give us a deeper dive into pig butchering scams! Join us as we discuss the scam operations, compounds and manipulation techniques used by the scammers.
An episode you will not want to miss!

Let’s Talk About Scams is broadcast live Tuesdays at 8AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Let’s Talk About Scams TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

Let’s Talk About Scams Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Disclaimer: The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional / legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references; however, R.O.S.E. Resources / Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam.

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WEBVTT

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This program is designed to provide general information with regards

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to the subject matters covered. This information is given with

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the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station

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are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling,

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professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services

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of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.

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The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational

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purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional

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legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted

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sources and references. However, Rose Resources outreach to safeguard the

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elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to

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a scam. Let's talk about scams. It's the must listen

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show for anyone who wants to protect themselves and their

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loved ones from scams. Every Tuesday am Pacific time on

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K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose, and

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her guests. We'll provide valuable insights and practical tips on

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how to recognize and protect yourself from scams. And now

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here is your host, Joyce Petrowski.

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Well, welcome back, everybody. I'm Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose

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Resources Outreach to safeguard the elderly. You can find more

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information on our website at Roseadvocacy dot org. The homepage

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list all of our social media channels. I'm hoping that

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we're going to be back up on Facebook soon, but

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we're on LinkedIn, Instagram YouTube. You can find all of

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the episodes on our YouTube channel and on our Let's

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Talk about Scams dot com website, and scroll down to

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the bottom of the homepage you'll find our newsletters. You

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can sign up for the email and or the mailed newsletter.

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Today we are going to do a d dive into

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pig butchering scams, and we have two guests. Aaron West

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was on a few weeks ago. She's the founder of

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Operation Shamrock, a global nonprofit uniting law enforcement, industry and

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everyday citizens to disrupt the world's fastest growing form of

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trans national organized crime, the pig butchering scams. And we

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also have doctor Martina dove Back. She is the expert

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in the psychology behind the scams with her book The

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Psychology of Fraud, Persuasion and Scam Techniques, which there'll.

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Be an update.

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A new volume coming out I believe in October. But

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let's welcome Aaron and Martina.

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Hi, guys. Once we can't forget about Steve and Steve.

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Steve's here as always, as always, Steve nice So pig

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butchering scams.

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Aaron, you and I talked about this last month. I

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don't know that we went into a whole lot of detail.

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But let's the first thing I think let's talk about.

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I think you mentioned before that these kind of started

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in Asia.

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Yeah, this is.

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Yeah, it came from Southeast Asian criminals. It is a

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long con. It's a romance slash investment scheme. And we've

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seen plenty of romance schemes in the past. We've seen

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investment schemes in the past, but this really smacked us

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in the face with it's the objective, the mission is

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to take every penny that you have, and that's why

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it's so particularly dangerous.

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So are a lot of the now.

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I watched the movie The Beekeeper when it first came out,

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and so I saw the big for a call center

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right that they operated out of in this office building.

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What is it like, is.

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Are they operating all of these types of call centers

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out of Southeast Asia or are they in other areas

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as well?

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Yeah, this really started in Southeast Asia in twenty twenty,

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twenty twenty one, and they are They're like call centers only.

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The issue here is that the people working the scams

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are for the most part human trafficked victims who didn't

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realize that that's what they were coming in to do.

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And so the scam centers look a lot like a prison.

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There are big walls around the outside, there are men's

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with AK forty sevens and they are sleeping six to

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a room and forced to do this scamming sixteen hours

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a day.

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Wow.

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Wow, So is it you said that they didn't know

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what they were signing up for? Is it more like

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they thought they were applying for a job, like a

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legitimate job, and then they go and in essence get kidnapped.

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That's exactly right. They some of the victims I've talked

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to are you Gondon? And they say I was working

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in an internet cafe making one hundred dollars a month

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and a fellow you Gonden, came in and said would

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you like to make a thousand dollars a month? And

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he thought, I'm twenty three years old. Yeah, I would

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like to make one thousand dollars a month, and went

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through a series of interviews, did a typing test, had

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every reason to believe that he was getting an official

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job in Bangkok, Thailand. He flew there and when he arrived,

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they took his passport, they took his cell phone, and

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they essentially kidnapped him and drove him for hours on

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end into another country. They drove him to me and

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mar and brought him behind the walls of a fortress

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and forced him to do his scamming.

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Wow.

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And what about the governments in these countries?

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Do they not know this is happening?

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Or do they just have so much other crime they're

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trying to deal with that this isn't top on their list,

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or maybe they just don't care.

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Yeah, what we're seeing is that they, the organized criminals

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running this, have deliberately chosen locations that are going to

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be friendly to them. And by that, I mean that

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they are amenable to taking bribes to allow this to

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continue to happen in their jurisdiction. And that's what we

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see happening, and that's what's happened in Cambodia, where we

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essentially they are running a scam economy. That's what they do.

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In Cambodia makescept sixty percent of their GDP, and in

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other hot spots like me and mar those are you know,

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they're in a civil war there, and so they are

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different areas controlled by armed militias. And with the right

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amount of payment to an armed militia, you pretty much

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run any enterprise you'd like to run.

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Yeah, money talks, right, Yeah, yeah, wow, that's just crazy. Actually,

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last week on the I did the show on social engineering, Martina,

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do you see in these pig butchering scams a lot

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of social engineering?

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Yeah?

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I would say, you know, first, like I just need

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to comment on the fact that, you know, when you

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think about it, right, like the targeting people that are

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desperate for a better job, like the targeting you know,

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these these human trafficking victims are victims of a fraud,

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you know themselves.

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It's just like really horrible.

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But yeah, I would say the big butchering scams are

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the most sophisticated that I've ever seen. They a lot

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of the times, even when it's just you know, investment,

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So like let's say your friends that are just talking

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about investment, the way the executed is incredibly sophisticated.

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And it wouldn't surprise.

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Me that there is a psychologist or some kind of

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a person that understands alogy and how people can be manipulated,

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you know, just in a you know, even if you

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take away what they're telling you, even if you take

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away the lies, and I know I've spoken to Erin

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about that. You know, don't even focus on like what

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lies you're being told. It's not even about lies. It's

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how they manipulate you by hooking you on through these

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friendly conversations that become part of your life. You trust

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the person who's you know, kind of conversing with you

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over a period of months, and then how they subliminally

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inject you to think about this, you know, kind of

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trades and think about investments before the eventual kind of

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like requests for money and the requests kind of like

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the big push that we're all warning people about, right

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Like when we issue these warnings, we say to people,

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if somebody's pressuring you to do this, they don't pressure

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the subliminary influence. And then at the end and when

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they start pressuring you, you're so far down the line

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and so invested and so confused and so manipulated that

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you're just not able to see the manipulation for what

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it is because it's been happening in tiny increments.

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Kind of like kind of like the grooming with the

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romance scam. Yes, right, yes, which is I actually talked

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to a lady who her close friend has been talking

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to this gentleman for six years, and she's been trying

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to explain to her that, you know, it's a scam.

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She sent some money, but she's been like planning the

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wedding and all of that stuff, and it's just I

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you know, I just told her, I said, you know,

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it's it's tough to hear, but the longer they're in it,

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the harder it is to break that spell that the

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scammer has over him, because it it's a brainwashing, right.

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It's total brainwashing.

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And you know, one quote came to mind as you

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were saying this. I was interviewing a victim and you know,

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of a romance fraud.

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And she said, to me, he didn't ask me for anything.

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I wanted to give it to him, and like and

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that that tells you everything, Like it's not you know,

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we warn victims a lot about pay attention to this.

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Don't send money to people who ask for money. They

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don't ask for money. You just want to give it

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to them because they've groomed you to the point where

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you think this is your od one, right, and this

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is somebody you trust.

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Again, how they're evolving, right, realizing that people are finding

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out you know, okay, well this is exactly the playbook

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of what I was told, what happened, and so they're

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changing things up. Yes, but that's even more dangerous, right,

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those little subliminal things.

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It's very it's so dangerous. I think it's all so

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like the fact that it's subliminal. You're not conscious of it,

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so you can't protect yourself from it. And I think

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a lot of the times I see very simplistic advice

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which says, don't panic, take your time.

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It's great advice. It's great advice. I give it too.

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But you know you don't you're not panicking. You're not

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conscious that you're panicking. You just know something's unsettling you

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and you're acting on it. And and even just like

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you know, sometimes like I think I've dived into this

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with with victims as well, you know, like sometimes I

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will ask really deep questions on like how this camera

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did and what the camera did and one of the

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things that comes out at some point just before they

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want you to do something, suddenly there'll be.

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A period of hours where they're unreachable and.

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That'll raise your anxiety, you know, and so like even

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if it's just like it's like, hey, I was at

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the lunch with a colleague and I lost some time,

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but it's just like that, you know, will build up

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the anxiety and then you'll want to prevent another bouts

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of the anxiety exactly. Yeah, yeah, wow.

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So you're you're right.

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I'm sure they have psychologists that are training the people.

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You know, it's interesting from that victim side of it.

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But then the other victim side of it, Aaron, you

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were talking about were the people that are kidnapped and

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trafficked and that's all out of fear based you know,

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because I'm sure do they do they like have quotas

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that they're supposed to make every day And is it

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so many phone calls there's so much money or.

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They definitely have quotas And I think it's I love

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that doctor dev is on this call today too, because

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I think that the nuance that people are missing in

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this is that people aren't stupid. People aren't there. They

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are they have been lured in a very calculated way

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down a path that's already been selected by the scammer.

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And the more we can get people to appreciate that,

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the kinder they'll be to victims. On the other side,

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the human trafficking side, I often talk about the idea

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that you're trying to make people do something that they

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would not ever want to do. Nobody wants to falsely

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make someone fall in love with you and then steal

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00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:30.600
from them. So to get regular, normal, kind human beings

227
00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:33.840
to do that, you need to either offer them a

228
00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:36.799
lot of treats or you need to make their lives

229
00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:41.039
really miserable. And they do both of them. And the

230
00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:46.039
violence that happens inside these scam facilities is horrendous and

231
00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:52.879
the the I was recently I just read some reviews

232
00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:55.879
of my speaking recently and someone said, oh, you should

233
00:13:55.960 --> 00:13:57.679
you should put a warning on if you're going to

234
00:13:57.720 --> 00:14:00.320
say what happens inside those facilities. So I won't tell you,

235
00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:03.600
but the fact that they're violent to those who don't

236
00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:11.919
do the work. Conversely, uh, they they offer really debaucherous

237
00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:16.240
levels of incentive to do the work. They give them prostitutes,

238
00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:21.039
they give them alcohol, they give them evenings in a

239
00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:28.399
in a karaoke bar, and and so the entire, the

240
00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:34.879
entire environment that they're in is so distasteful that either

241
00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:38.600
we're offering women and wine or we're going to beat

242
00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:41.360
you up for not doing your right right now.

243
00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:44.440
And so I offer, yeah, like, I just want to

244
00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:46.799
offer a quick perspective here, because this is the first

245
00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:51.559
time I'm hearing that that's the form of grooming. You're

246
00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:56.759
desensitizing a person, you know, to be able to accept.

247
00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:57.200
The new normal.

248
00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:00.639
Right, the new normal is that you are person who

249
00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:03.720
is immoral, So therefore why should you care about being

250
00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:04.279
a calmer?

251
00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:05.200
Right?

252
00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:08.480
Yeah, that's it is. It's really sad.

253
00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.240
And you know when when you look at it, and

254
00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:16.000
if you try to put yourself in the in the

255
00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:20.159
the victim, the human trafficked victims shoes, right, It's like,

256
00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:24.039
if you're given a choice, I'm going to get to

257
00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:26.360
go to a karaoke bar and drink, or I'm going

258
00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:29.440
to be given alcohol or this, or I'm going to

259
00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:32.240
get beat up or something more violent.

260
00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:35.759
They're going to go for this right, you.

261
00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:40.399
Know, And and so that's a that's a huge incentive

262
00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:43.600
do Yeah.

263
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.960
It's so basic. It's the it's the treats versus versus

264
00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:49.799
it's good versus bad. Like you're, yeah, you're gonna make

265
00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:52.360
that decision, and they know that and they play on it.

266
00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:53.039
Right.

267
00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:57.879
Yeah, Wow, that's it's very bad. Like I didn't know that.

268
00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:01.320
It's it's really interesting as well. Like I think if

269
00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:03.919
you are forcing somebody to do something they don't want

270
00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:07.600
to do over a long period of time, you are

271
00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:12.519
like probably you know, like you don't want to have

272
00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:17.000
them rebel because obviously probably there's more of these people

273
00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:19.000
that are being held against the will than there is

274
00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:23.519
people and you could potentially cause a riot, right, So,

275
00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:27.159
like I think, how do you now get them.

276
00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:29.039
To accept the new normal? Right? Like that?

277
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:34.039
That's so like I'm pretty sure there's like psychological.

278
00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:36.200
Ways of how they groom.

279
00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:39.000
The people that have to do this work and what

280
00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:42.519
psychological damage that leaves once they escape as well.

281
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:45.480
Right, you know, I mean and is it have you

282
00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:46.159
found Aaron?

283
00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:49.960
That's it's it's kind of like for them to get

284
00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:53.279
out of this, they have to escape or does it

285
00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:55.720
come a certain point in time where the people just

286
00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:58.080
say we're done with you and they just throw them

287
00:16:58.120 --> 00:16:59.399
out on the street.

288
00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:03.960
The most part, people are not getting out and they

289
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:07.000
are doing their best to contact people on the outside

290
00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:10.200
to help get them out. There were a couple of

291
00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:13.839
isolated times where where big groups have gotten out, and

292
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:16.440
there have been some one offs, but for the most part,

293
00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:20.119
people aren't really getting out. And then what is happening.

294
00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:22.519
I think it is much, you know, worth looking at

295
00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:26.200
what the aftermath is like for these people that I think,

296
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.200
you know, everybody we think that when your money is stolen,

297
00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.200
the worst has happened to you, but we know that

298
00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:36.519
that's not true. There's a psychological aftermath. Absolutely, you think

299
00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:39.440
that the worst has happened and you're done when you

300
00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:41.880
get out and you're released and you go back to Uganda,

301
00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:46.079
but you're not welcomed backed with open arms, like things

302
00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:49.160
aren't easy for you. You still don't have a real job.

303
00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:54.279
You and you are seen differently and you've suffered trauma and.

304
00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:55.559
You've absolute trauma.

305
00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:02.359
Right do you see aaron that you said, like somebody

306
00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:05.359
in Uganda could be sitting in an internet cafe working

307
00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:08.279
making one hundred dollars a month or a day or

308
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:12.200
whatever it was a month and then somebody comes in

309
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:14.240
and says, hey, would you like to work and make

310
00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:17.240
a thousand dollars a month? You know, that's that's a

311
00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:24.000
huge increase. But are they targeting the younger generation or

312
00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:27.559
it just doesn't matter. It's whoever's in there or whoever

313
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:29.519
they can get to do the work.

314
00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:34.000
You know, I would say for the most part, when

315
00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:37.640
they were actually doing they are actually doing ads that

316
00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:40.200
are all over meta and they'll say something like, I

317
00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:43.559
don't know, twenty, you know, like twenty to thirty five

318
00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:45.920
or something like that. That's the age they're looking at.

319
00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:49.400
But we do know that there are there miners in there,

320
00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:51.880
that there are there are kids under eighteen in there,

321
00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:55.440
there are older people in there, but I think I

322
00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:57.480
think their interest is in.

323
00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:02.839
Twenty twenty to thirty five. Yeah, okay, interesting, and it's interesting.

324
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.920
You said there's ads on Facebook.

325
00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:07.880
Oh Choyce, Yeah, I know.

326
00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:08.680
We've talked about it.

327
00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:14.279
I personally finally got back on Facebook and I saw.

328
00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:17.000
A post that they took down.

329
00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:21.960
Their technology department said it wasn't it violated their community standards.

330
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:23.599
And I looked at it and it was a post

331
00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:27.039
that I must have shared from Rose about is your

332
00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:29.359
are you locked out of your Facebook account?

333
00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:31.920
Well, here's some things you can do, and one of

334
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:32.640
them is go to.

335
00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:35.720
Help and support and put a you know, put a

336
00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:37.920
support claim in and this and that, and so I

337
00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:41.200
appealed it and this morning they came up and said, well,

338
00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:44.000
we put it back up. Our technology department made a mistake,

339
00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:47.839
and but Roses is still not up. I've got to

340
00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:50.960
support ticket in on that one. So to find out

341
00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:54.839
and somebody actually said to me, you know, maybe all

342
00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:58.960
of those fake Facebook accounts that are bots, maybe they

343
00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:03.400
just all started lamming with complaints against you and that's

344
00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:05.359
why they took it down. Yeah.

345
00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:09.240
So yeah, and it's just it's terrible.

346
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:12.440
It's terrible that like legitimate people that are trying to

347
00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:16.400
prevent scams are being blocked on Facebook, but is allowing

348
00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:20.359
tons and tons of boats, fake ads whatever else.

349
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:22.440
Yeah.

350
00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:24.559
Yeah, that's well that's crazy.

351
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:25.359
Have you.

352
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:29.480
Have you seen that there's like come across anybody from

353
00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:34.599
the United States that has been insign Yeah no, not,

354
00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:38.160
I mean in their you know, kidnapped or.

355
00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:43.079
Have you found any.

356
00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:44.680
Compounds or anything like that in the United States or

357
00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:47.119
they pretty much all predominantly overseas.

358
00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:50.640
They're all predominantly overseas. But what we are seeing in

359
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:55.440
the United States that cause me concern is that what

360
00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:59.880
we're dealing with is a pretty extensive money laundering practice

361
00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:04.240
that is international. And so the scammers are going to

362
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:07.039
find a way to get your money away from you,

363
00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.400
and the ideally they want you to move it from

364
00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:14.680
your bank into cryptocurrency and move it into crypto. If

365
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:17.400
that doesn't work, they will find another way for you

366
00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:19.400
to move your money. And what we're seeing is that

367
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:22.720
they're even doing cash pickups from people's homes.

368
00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:28.039
So I agree that where they send the uber ye yeah.

369
00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:31.279
Or but they have they have a pretty sophisticated telegram

370
00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:33.599
group of people that can be relied upon to go

371
00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:37.160
make these these cash pickups. And it's happening all over

372
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:41.119
the United States. Wow, picking up thousands of dollars from

373
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:44.240
people in shoe boxes and paper bags from their Wow.

374
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:47.680
What about the go ahead?

375
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:48.279
Yeah? Sorry.

376
00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:51.440
A lot of the times, the people that are operating

377
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:54.319
like their money mules base.

378
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:55.599
I was just going to bring that up.

379
00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:58.640
Sometimes they don't even know that it's what they do exactly.

380
00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:01.359
They just know they're paying some month they're picking some money,

381
00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:04.119
they're taking it, you know, and and it's it's like

382
00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:09.000
it's so convoluted, and so I think it's so far

383
00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:12.880
removed from like who the orchestrator is that like a

384
00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:15.880
lot of the times, even even some romans comes victims.

385
00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:18.119
Like I've interviewed people that have told me, you know,

386
00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:20.000
I was like a money in you and I didn't

387
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:20.640
even know it.

388
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:23.079
I was just like I was moving money, and then

389
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:24.119
when it all.

390
00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:26.720
Came to light, you know, I got in trouble for

391
00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.119
like like taking money out of some account or like

392
00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:32.559
sending like money to some you know.

393
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:35.480
It's a lot of like like they're literally.

394
00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:39.519
As commer will sometimes you know, like having a relationship

395
00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.599
with somebody, that person trust them, they'll use that person

396
00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:46.079
unwittingly to move some money and that person is implicated

397
00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:46.960
without even knowing.

398
00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:47.960
Absolutely.

399
00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:52.039
Yeah, last month Brian was filling in for me, and

400
00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:56.119
he had a retired FBI agent on who actually is

401
00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:59.640
on our advisory board, Martin, and they talked about the

402
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:02.960
money mules, and Martin talked about what they saw in

403
00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:07.079
Phoenix right with people not knowing that they were money mules,

404
00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:11.000
and whether it was actually sending a bunch of cash

405
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:15.799
in the mail, or it was you know, allowing someone

406
00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:18.559
to put money into your bank account and then you

407
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:22.000
taking it and transferring it someplace else, which you think

408
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:25.680
is innocent, right, It's just I'm allowing a friend to

409
00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:28.319
deposit money into my account and I'm going to turn

410
00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:30.400
around and put it into someone else's account.

411
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:31.359
I'm doing them a favor.

412
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:36.599
But it's you can get into serious, serious trouble with that.

413
00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:37.680
They he taught.

414
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:40.000
Martin talked about how many people they had to go

415
00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:42.759
and a lot of times it was the older adults

416
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:45.920
having to go talk to them and explain to them

417
00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:49.839
that it's an illegal it's a money mule, this is why.

418
00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:54.039
And you know you're going to get asked again. You know,

419
00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:56.960
don't do it because if you continue to do it.

420
00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:00.359
You know we could arrest you. And yeah, that's pretty scary.

421
00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:08.240
It's pretty scary. So back to social engineering.

422
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:11.960
Have you guys seen an article.

423
00:24:13.400 --> 00:24:16.400
And I know I saw it in the last sometime

424
00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:18.640
in the last two to four weeks, but for the

425
00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:21.160
life of me, I could not find it again. And

426
00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:24.119
it was on social engineering, and it was something about

427
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:29.519
how scammers when they're putting job posts out there they're

428
00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:35.359
actually looking for people that are experienced and that they

429
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:38.039
might not call it social engineering, but they call it

430
00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:41.319
something else. But they're looking for people that are actually

431
00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:46.880
experienced in that. Have you guys seen anything.

432
00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:48.680
Nobody wouldn't surprise me.

433
00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:53.319
Maybe maybe.

434
00:24:54.119 --> 00:24:56.000
Maybe human penetration testing.

435
00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:57.920
I mean, there are people who come up with a

436
00:24:58.000 --> 00:24:59.880
phishing fake fishing emails.

437
00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:02.759
Organizations do like maybe something like that.

438
00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:05.759
I mean, but I mean it's it's you know, there

439
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:08.319
are manuals out there, I think you know, are in

440
00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:12.839
you post that some some parts of that, Like there

441
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:15.519
are manuals on a dark obb you can purchase and

442
00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.119
you can you know, and I'm pretty sure in these

443
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:19.480
big centers.

444
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:22.039
There are coaches that coach you how to do it.

445
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:27.960
And yeah, yeah, they're really operating at a level of

446
00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:30.920
fraud as a service. That all of this stuff is available,

447
00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:34.079
there's telegram channels on all of it. You can get

448
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:38.359
into this industry tomorrow. And it is really it's an

449
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:43.400
industrialized way of being a thief.

450
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:44.480
Wow.

451
00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:48.480
So it's not it's not the what was that movie

452
00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:53.039
Catch Me if you Can or something like that, like

453
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:55.519
the way the way scams and frauds started.

454
00:25:56.599 --> 00:25:58.279
It is really really you know.

455
00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:01.559
What's really really sad about that, right, Like I love

456
00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:04.559
that story and I read all of the books and

457
00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:07.000
I quoted him in my book, and now I saw

458
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:09.960
that I had to think I'm taking a.

459
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:12.880
Bit like beware, And now it's come out that he lies.

460
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:16.359
Oh really, yeah, because I didn't know that.

461
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:19.039
Yeah. So, like there there are.

462
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.160
Accounts that he has invented some of these stories and

463
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:25.160
things like that. But I make a point, doesn't that

464
00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:28.559
make him even a betters comer? Right now?

465
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:31.440
The definition of scammer. He scammed us all into believing

466
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:32.559
that that happened.

467
00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:36.160
Absolutely exactly, yes, you b I or something you know,

468
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:37.440
So like well, right.

469
00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:40.400
I mean because people look, you know, people that want

470
00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:42.680
to know more about the inside of scams and how

471
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.200
they work, they look at him as an authority figure,

472
00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:47.680
right because he did it for so long?

473
00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:48.519
Yeah.

474
00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:54.240
Wow, So Aaron, what what are the chances that any

475
00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:59.160
of these compounds are going to get shut down? Like, well,

476
00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:02.519
do any of these countries work with the United States

477
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:03.400
Law enforcement?

478
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:09.359
As you said, yeah, the United States Law Enforcement isn't

479
00:27:09.400 --> 00:27:12.559
all that in the game in terms of trying to

480
00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:15.400
shut this down, unfortunately, and that is a piece of

481
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:18.079
the problem. What I will say is there are countries

482
00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:20.880
who have taken it upon themselves to shut down some

483
00:27:20.920 --> 00:27:24.720
of these, like the Philippines, and the Philippines has rated

484
00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:30.240
I think six or seven by now, which is impressive.

485
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.839
And I was talking to I was recording a podcast

486
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:39.039
yesterday with Jim Browning, who is a scam baiterer. Yes,

487
00:27:39.319 --> 00:27:41.680
the famous YouTuber. He was the ones who was sending

488
00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:48.640
glitter bombs to for pirates and yeah, and so what

489
00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:51.960
he was saying is that I lost my train of

490
00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:56.559
thought because of Steve and glitter bombs. But oh, what

491
00:27:56.680 --> 00:28:00.079
you were saying is he identified one in Dubai. He

492
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:03.200
identified a scam facility doing pig butchering in Dubai. When

493
00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:05.000
I was in Dubai, I went and saw it and

494
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:10.200
definitely that's what it was. And because of his work

495
00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:16.759
and providing information to Dubai authorities, they ultimately within It

496
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:18.720
took longer than I'd like to say it did, but

497
00:28:18.759 --> 00:28:20.599
it took five or six months, but they did shut

498
00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:23.039
that down, and so they shut down another one and

499
00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:27.640
another one. So the thing is it's doable. What my

500
00:28:27.799 --> 00:28:31.200
fear is having been on the ground in Cambodia and

501
00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:34.279
seen the extent of what is happening on the ground

502
00:28:34.599 --> 00:28:37.720
that that is a wildfire that is now dangerously out

503
00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:41.720
of control. We are not dealing with, you know, five

504
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:45.440
ten twenty facilities in Cambodia. We're dealing with five ten

505
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:50.440
twenty on this street in Campbway. It is it's really

506
00:28:50.920 --> 00:28:55.200
a scale that's unimaginable. And really it was unimaginable to

507
00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:57.559
me until I went there and saw it and realized,

508
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.680
oh my god, it's that building and that building and

509
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.759
that building, and then you drive over this and then

510
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:06.920
there's and it's all under construction, Like this is their industry,

511
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:09.279
this is where all their money is going, and this

512
00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:10.720
is where all their money is coming in.

513
00:29:11.319 --> 00:29:16.079
It's just always under construction, right yeah, wow, And I

514
00:29:16.119 --> 00:29:16.720
think you.

515
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:19.880
Know, like one thing that you know has always been

516
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:25.039
a problem, right, like ever since internet was invented. It's

517
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:28.519
like the jurisdiction as well, So like how do you

518
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:34.319
establish who is responsible for prosecution for an investigation? Is

519
00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:36.599
it the country where the victim is from? Is it

520
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.519
the country where the perpetrates is from? And then if

521
00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:43.039
the perpetrator is moving the countries, can you even investigate?

522
00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:43.480
Right?

523
00:29:43.519 --> 00:29:43.640
Like?

524
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:46.000
So I think a lot of the time, Like I

525
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:49.359
think if they were to build something in US, that

526
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:52.720
would probably be shut down relatively quickly, right, Like it's

527
00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:55.960
it's the fact that they are somewhere else, And so

528
00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:02.559
you have to now like like be a global organization

529
00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:07.200
that is connected to other countries, that has worked all

530
00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:10.359
of the South. And unfortunately fraud is one of those things,

531
00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:12.759
especially like I don't know if you've come across that

532
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:17.119
area as well, Like I find when it's an organizational fraud,

533
00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:21.319
you know, an organization will deal with it, will prosecute,

534
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:24.880
you know, via single matter, and even the governments will

535
00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:28.559
look upon like if let's have a big organization that

536
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:31.359
is well known that it's funding the government, that it's

537
00:30:31.400 --> 00:30:34.480
paying big taxes, like they'll take it most seriously. But

538
00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:37.559
when it's just some like person down the road getting scammed,

539
00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:40.160
it doesn't, you know, like like no one's going to

540
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:43.160
care about somebody being scammed in a Roman scan.

541
00:30:43.480 --> 00:30:45.799
So I think, like that's all swept under the rug.

542
00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:48.640
And then you really need to have a lot of

543
00:30:48.680 --> 00:30:53.440
goodwill by the organizations, by the government, by people in

544
00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:57.799
the government. And I worked a lot with UK organizations

545
00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:00.640
when I was doing my PhD, and there were some

546
00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:07.440
amazingly dedicated people working for the UK bodies trying.

547
00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:07.799
To fight it.

548
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:10.559
But it's difficult because it's like, if it's out of

549
00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:13.640
the jurisdiction, there's nothing they can do, you know, and

550
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:16.880
they hit the dead ends, and you know, they have

551
00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:21.279
to then communicate with somebody wherever the scam is happening,

552
00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:25.240
wherever they think the scammer is or the organization.

553
00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:26.599
Even worse, if their.

554
00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:32.680
Organization is funding corrupt regimes, who's gonna exactly They're not

555
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:37.559
going to cooperate, right, They're being paid not to cooperate.

556
00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:42.519
Yeah, Martina, here is a really interesting point about how

557
00:31:42.559 --> 00:31:47.200
we care about it when big organizations are getting scammed

558
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:55.319
when and I think that it really is yet another

559
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:57.920
thing that seems to operate in favor of the scammer.

560
00:31:58.319 --> 00:32:01.240
That when you are picking out individuals one by one

561
00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:04.759
by one by one, you have differentiation different law enforcement

562
00:32:04.839 --> 00:32:07.720
talking to you, you don't understand the gravity and the

563
00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:11.119
massive scale of what's happening until you put them all

564
00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:13.799
in the same bunch, and then you think, oh my god,

565
00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:17.880
we've been overrun. Those country's literally been overrun and has

566
00:32:18.519 --> 00:32:20.920
had a generation's worth of wealth stolen.

567
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:24.400
Yeah, Yes, and you can have victims. You could have

568
00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:29.079
victims from the same group of scammers in all fifty states,

569
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:33.119
right and then so then you've got the police that

570
00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:35.240
have to talk to the police and all these different

571
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:40.000
states and yeah, coordinate everything. I mean, is this where

572
00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:44.000
the the FBI might come in and they can kind

573
00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:48.599
of be national or are they still limited to wherever

574
00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:50.599
their office is, their jurisdiction.

575
00:32:52.119 --> 00:32:54.759
Well, we'll see it this way. I think that I

576
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:59.319
think that every every organization in law enforcement, from state

577
00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:04.000
to local, to federal to international, has got to play

578
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:06.079
a role in how we're attacking.

579
00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:07.240
This and that.

580
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:13.160
Are there are good points and bad points to each

581
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:16.079
of these, but what's really important is that each of

582
00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:18.839
them has their strength and their own tools. That's how

583
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:23.000
we develop this truth that state and local the way

584
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:26.119
I would design this response to this problem is state

585
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:29.440
and local should be experts at collecting the information. They

586
00:33:29.440 --> 00:33:32.720
should be experts at dealing with victims. They should have

587
00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:37.240
watched a video from doctor Dove and understood who's coming

588
00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:39.400
in and what the problem is. And they should watch

589
00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:42.400
video for me that says, here's the information you need

590
00:33:42.440 --> 00:33:45.480
to get from them, here's the very basics of cryptocurrency,

591
00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:48.319
and they should take that information and they should funnel

592
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:50.759
it up to the federal government, and the federal government

593
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:53.160
should be looking at this as a whole.

594
00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:56.240
Yeah, as a whole, and it makes sense.

595
00:33:56.079 --> 00:34:00.319
Yeah, it makes sense. It's what local law enforcement should

596
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:05.119
do is be first line of defense kind understanding, taking

597
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:10.239
the information and providing information about what these victims can

598
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:14.000
expect next, because that is something that has been sorely lacking,

599
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:17.000
is they're not getting assistance on the local and state

600
00:34:17.079 --> 00:34:21.320
level because local and state levels are they lack resources,

601
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:24.960
training tools, They don't understand this scam. They don't understand

602
00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:28.400
that it is a scam. They are really annoyed that

603
00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:30.599
they're working the desk because they'd much prefer to be

604
00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:34.119
out on patrol that day and so and so you've

605
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:36.920
got that issue. And then what's happening is they then

606
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:40.199
report to FBI, and that is a black hole right

607
00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:43.280
now to them. They get no response back. They do

608
00:34:43.320 --> 00:34:45.920
not believe, they have no reason to believe that anybody's

609
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:49.440
working on their case, and then they start reporting everywhere

610
00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:52.320
piecemeal to find somebody to listen to them.

611
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:53.519
You got it, okay?

612
00:34:54.679 --> 00:34:57.519
I mean even I would say, like you know, when

613
00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:00.719
I was studying this, you know, and I think that

614
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:05.760
organizations still exists called Action Fraud in the UK. Action

615
00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:09.119
Fraud was founded so that it would be a centralized

616
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:13.239
place where somebody can report fraud. Having said that, they

617
00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:16.920
have been heavily criticized because the stuff didn't have appropriate training.

618
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:19.920
I think they had like a terrible.

619
00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:24.440
Situation where I think an inside journalist found that they

620
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:26.079
were mocking the victims.

621
00:35:27.159 --> 00:35:29.360
But like the biggest problem was that they didn't.

622
00:35:29.159 --> 00:35:33.679
Have a standardized way of like asking a victim what happened.

623
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:35.280
So even the.

624
00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:38.480
Researcher is like like a researcher when I was studying

625
00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:40.960
my PhD at a conference, a matter researcher who was

626
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:44.360
diving into the data that Action Fraud had and she

627
00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:46.760
was saying, I can't do any kind of like high

628
00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:48.760
level analysis on it because.

629
00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:50.840
It's like every call is different.

630
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:55.760
They're not asking standardized questions to then figure out like

631
00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:58.960
is there like what you know, what Paul did with

632
00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:03.880
Yoho Boys and a s extortion? You know, like like

633
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:06.599
you have to invest a lot of time to figure

634
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:09.119
out like where is this coming from? Because you can't

635
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:12.800
go after like if it's a lone person just coming somebody.

636
00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:15.960
It's it's not worth your time. But how do you

637
00:36:16.039 --> 00:36:18.880
actually even figure out like the scale of the problem.

638
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:22.880
It's likely the same criminal where is it? So you

639
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:25.480
need to have a standardized process for that. So when

640
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:28.079
the action started, I don't think they had a good

641
00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:30.880
standardized process or the stuff.

642
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:33.199
Didn't follow one if it existed.

643
00:36:34.039 --> 00:36:36.960
So therefore the data becomes just noise, you know, and

644
00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:38.159
you don't know what's true.

645
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:42.519
I do now, Aaron and Operation Shamrock. You guys have.

646
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:50.639
A hotline that people can call in and file their report, right,

647
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:52.719
you guys have trained.

648
00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:55.199
We don't have a hotline. What we a We have

649
00:36:56.239 --> 00:36:59.360
a portal where they can report their scam and a

650
00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:01.519
train to get or we'll look at it. We also

651
00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:06.679
have referrals to trust trusted partners like the Identity Theft

652
00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:12.440
respond Center and AARP. Okay, but what doctor Dove is

653
00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:17.719
saying makes so much sense about standardization of all of

654
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:23.159
this and standard intake. Standardization is so important, especially if

655
00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:26.639
we're trying to find the gaps and the places where

656
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:30.119
we could make a difference. And if we could learn

657
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:34.199
how these bad actors are accessing our people, if we

658
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:38.480
could learn how specifically how this money is being moved

659
00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:42.360
every time and find commonalities and really start to look

660
00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:44.800
at that data in terms of where could we make

661
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:48.599
a difference. That's the way forward, and perhaps we can

662
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:51.400
use some of the some of the hiccups of action

663
00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:53.760
fraud as as.

664
00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:55.320
As learning as learning.

665
00:37:55.519 --> 00:37:59.840
Yeah yeah, I mean I'm talking. I'm talking of that

666
00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:02.920
to go over a decade ago, like you know that.

667
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:06.360
We're just starting out, so I'm hoping, you know, even

668
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.599
in my book, like I think I presented a framework

669
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:14.760
that other researchers have set out, like what is a taxonomy?

670
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:16.880
What you should be asking? How you should be finding

671
00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:20.719
these things? Because how do you know, how can you

672
00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:23.599
now look at this like large body of data that

673
00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:26.599
you have and figure out, Okay, this is likely the

674
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:29.920
same type of scamp because the models of RANDI is

675
00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:32.519
the thing, right, Like, let's go after that because of

676
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:34.840
the you know, like you can't really look at the

677
00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:37.760
data if it's not standardized in some.

678
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:39.920
Way, right right?

679
00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:41.960
You know what it reminds me of. It reminds me

680
00:38:42.039 --> 00:38:45.400
of when we started to really wrap our heads around

681
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:50.280
how to interview children of sexual assault, and we decided

682
00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:53.519
that there was a standardized way that it should be

683
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:56.039
done in order to do a forensic interview. And people

684
00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:59.719
were taught that way of questioning children so that it

685
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:05.239
was leading and it wasn't suggestive and it was that's interesting.

686
00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:10.000
Yeah, you mentioned forensic. I mean that's exactly what it is,

687
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:15.760
is a forensic questioning, right, which is unbiased, not leading.

688
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:21.320
You're gathering facts, you're gathering information, but you're also like

689
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:25.519
a forensic audit or a forensic account would you know

690
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:26.559
accountant would do?

691
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:29.480
But I think you also need to think about it's

692
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:32.239
not just about not asking the leading question. You you

693
00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:35.159
should be asking a leading question when you're asking somebody

694
00:39:35.239 --> 00:39:36.199
to provide the account.

695
00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:38.320
Because even just like when.

696
00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:41.119
You look at the data from BBB, which is available

697
00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:45.199
to anyone, when people, you know, report scams, every person

698
00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:48.440
will describe things totally differently. Some person would say, yeah,

699
00:39:48.519 --> 00:39:52.440
this person called me and you know, I sent you

700
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:54.360
one hundred and fifty dollars and then I realized this

701
00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:57.199
it's you don't know anything else, right, And another person

702
00:39:57.239 --> 00:40:00.039
will go into a granular detail what has come to

703
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:00.440
all them?

704
00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:03.719
Uh, what was the email that's come I emailed them from?

705
00:40:04.119 --> 00:40:04.320
You know?

706
00:40:04.599 --> 00:40:07.400
So I think you need to guide people to give

707
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:10.199
you exact information, right.

708
00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:12.159
Like, okay, like what was the email?

709
00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:15.360
Maybe it's coming maybe we can track down what you know,

710
00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:17.920
so you need to really know, like and I think

711
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:20.239
this is where erin where you come in, right like, Okay,

712
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:23.199
you know, who are the people that are looking at

713
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:26.000
the chain of events, right like, and who can figure

714
00:40:26.039 --> 00:40:29.400
out that path? And what are the questions we should

715
00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:32.599
be asking along the way? And then you know, what

716
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:34.719
are some other things? You know, because people are going

717
00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:38.039
to be telling you about the feelings when they're overwhelmed, abright,

718
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:41.039
not going maybe they're not gonna be like thinking, you

719
00:40:41.079 --> 00:40:44.519
know what's interesting too forensic accountants.

720
00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:46.480
To truck them right, because they're gonna be in an

721
00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:48.679
emotional state, right exactly exactly.

722
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:51.800
So this is why we need standardized forms to actually

723
00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:56.320
collect certain information that will help even just like piece

724
00:40:56.440 --> 00:41:00.079
together some of this you know, you know, like if

725
00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:03.800
you're thinking about you know, like, okay, there's only so

726
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:07.840
much money the government can invest in tackling fraud.

727
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:10.239
Where should we go? How do we find that? Where

728
00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:10.760
should we go?

729
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:15.880
If we don't have a good way of segmenting the

730
00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:18.840
data that we have to tell us a story, right.

731
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:20.840
And the only way to do that is to have

732
00:41:21.079 --> 00:41:22.800
a process that.

733
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:25.360
Isn't just Okay, tell me what's happened, No, to get

734
00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:28.719
the information exactly, to get the right information, to get

735
00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:31.639
the level of granularity right.

736
00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:35.119
No, that would be great, And Aaron, I want to

737
00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:40.719
talk to you some more about implementing something within ROWS

738
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:45.679
where the people in Arizona right can call to report

739
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:51.239
and kind of connect it then with Operation Shamrock, and

740
00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:55.000
that would be a standardized, right question, I just have

741
00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:58.480
to I thought about having the you know, setting up

742
00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:02.440
a twenty four to seven type hot hotline, right, but

743
00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:05.639
it could be somebody calling I think this is a scam?

744
00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:06.199
What do you think?

745
00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:08.320
But a lot of times you're going to get people

746
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:11.039
that have already fallen victim that are gonna call right

747
00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:15.639
to report it. But yeah, and it just it never

748
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:16.519
came to fruition.

749
00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:19.719
But I want to. I want to. Yeah, I think

750
00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:20.599
some more.

751
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:24.119
And I think that our fight against this has to

752
00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:27.199
be in baby steps like that, if we're sitting around

753
00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:29.920
waiting for a national solution to fix this, we're going

754
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:32.320
to be still sitting here. So what will work in

755
00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:34.920
your jurisdiction and what can you do today to make

756
00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:38.199
it a little safer for people in your neighborhood.

757
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:41.719
Right, yeah, absolutely. I mean if if if nationally they

758
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:43.920
were doing something about it, we wouldn't be where we're

759
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:47.400
at right now. Yeah, right, And I see a lot

760
00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:50.639
of bills come through, but it seems to always be

761
00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:55.639
highly focused on after it happens, and it's like, we

762
00:42:55.719 --> 00:42:59.440
don't need any more victims. Let's get the education out

763
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:03.320
there trying them to stop, you know, to recognize it

764
00:43:03.639 --> 00:43:07.159
and not become a victim.

765
00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:10.039
But all the punishing, I think, you know, it sends

766
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:14.199
the wrong message when you don't investigate and you don't

767
00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:17.800
and I know for really complicated, it's complicated. I have

768
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:21.400
sympathy for law enforcement with fraud, with with you know,

769
00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:26.920
cross border complexities, but I think, you know, we need

770
00:43:26.960 --> 00:43:31.679
to try and make it slightly unsafer. What's commerce because

771
00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:33.880
right now it's like, I mean, I don't know. I

772
00:43:33.880 --> 00:43:36.519
think it's there's more risk of you being like in

773
00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:41.440
jail for shoplifting diapers.

774
00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:42.880
Right then you.

775
00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:47.960
Are one, I mean right, because when we do see that,

776
00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:52.960
people get arrested and getting prosecuted, I mean they might

777
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:55.639
get eight to ten years and they're out in two

778
00:43:55.719 --> 00:43:58.559
to five on good behavior and It's like they just

779
00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:03.440
stolehundreds of millions of dollars and put people out on

780
00:44:03.480 --> 00:44:06.440
the street and this is all they're getting.

781
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:09.440
And then there's a lot.

782
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:13.039
Of people that are like, why should I even report nothing?

783
00:44:13.400 --> 00:44:15.119
Nobody ever gets punished for it.

784
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:16.920
They feel like it's a wait of time.

785
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:22.000
Yeah, and glamorizing, glamorizing process really upsets me, Like what

786
00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:26.960
was happening with Anna Delvi and Netflix shows and Netflix

787
00:44:27.079 --> 00:44:31.840
series and blaming victims for like accepting our gifts, and

788
00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:35.480
you know, like I think that like that we need

789
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:39.559
to do better at it's it's.

790
00:44:39.079 --> 00:44:41.079
You know, would you glamorize the pedophile?

791
00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:45.840
No, no, right, just because they dressed really nicely and

792
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:48.840
they're smart you know, like I think we need to

793
00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:49.639
do better there.

794
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:50.719
Oh yeah absolutely.

795
00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:52.920
And I mean just you know, I see people on

796
00:44:53.079 --> 00:44:56.599
Facebook and the next door apps and stuff like that,

797
00:44:56.679 --> 00:44:59.800
and when someone is being vulnerable and talking about their

798
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:03.679
experience because they want other people to know what the

799
00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:07.159
scam was that they just fell victim to, so hopefully

800
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:09.679
other people won't fall You're going to get these people

801
00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:11.440
that respond and go, well.

802
00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:14.480
Just don't be so gullible. It's like, excuse me.

803
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:20.719
Yeah, there really is an acceptable level of shame that

804
00:45:21.320 --> 00:45:25.480
that is allowed in this place, and we wouldn't. We

805
00:45:25.519 --> 00:45:27.960
wouldn't laud on any other.

806
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:33.599
No, would we do that for a domestic violence victim? Yeah, no, Yeah,

807
00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:34.039
we wouldn't.

808
00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:35.360
I think.

809
00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:35.719
Yeah.

810
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:37.159
But again it goes.

811
00:45:36.920 --> 00:45:40.800
Back to I think everybody thinks that if you fall

812
00:45:41.079 --> 00:45:43.559
I shouldn't say everybody thinks, but a lot of people

813
00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:46.880
still think if you fall victim to a scam, it's

814
00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:48.880
because you were stupid, you made a state.

815
00:45:48.920 --> 00:45:49.400
And it's like.

816
00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:54.079
Scams have nothing to do with intelligence at all. I mean,

817
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:58.480
some of the smartest people have given away millions of dollars.

818
00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:01.920
Yeah, it's you know, like I like to think of

819
00:46:01.960 --> 00:46:05.599
it this way, right, Like there are certain certain crimes

820
00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:09.159
we always try to shift the blame to the victim,

821
00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:11.960
and I think domestic violence was one of those until

822
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:16.639
we learn better. Sexual assaults are another one. And you know,

823
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:19.079
like it comes down to you. And you know, I've

824
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:22.000
heard that with like proad victims too, when you interview them.

825
00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:24.000
First thing they say, I thought it would never happen

826
00:46:24.039 --> 00:46:25.320
to me. I'm intelligent, like.

827
00:46:25.400 --> 00:46:28.239
I made assumed that I felt for them.

828
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:29.960
Yeah, like, what how did this happen?

829
00:46:30.039 --> 00:46:30.239
To me.

830
00:46:30.679 --> 00:46:33.039
But the thing is, you know, like in psychology, there's

831
00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:37.559
something called the just world bias, and you know, it's.

832
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:40.920
A belief that there is justice in the world and

833
00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:44.039
that like bad things don't happen to good people.

834
00:46:44.119 --> 00:46:46.559
That's karma. You hear people talking about karma.

835
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:49.239
Karma, so if something happened to you, it must be

836
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:54.079
some kind of a you know, like effect of something you.

837
00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:55.880
Did karma or something you did.

838
00:46:55.960 --> 00:46:57.679
Right, well, it's not even.

839
00:46:57.519 --> 00:46:59.639
The karma, but it's it's almost kind of like that

840
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:02.920
of control that we have, right, we think that we

841
00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:05.760
can control our events. Like you hear that a lot

842
00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:11.519
with like some assaults where victim freezes, right, like like

843
00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:16.599
you know, fight flights like or freeze is also a

844
00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:19.760
response that you just go into and you can't control.

845
00:47:20.199 --> 00:47:22.519
But like a lot of the times we blame like

846
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:26.719
great victims for freezing instead of fighting and they didn't

847
00:47:26.800 --> 00:47:29.719
get injured as injured as if they were fighting, and

848
00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:33.159
they get beaten and then therefore like the credible because

849
00:47:33.199 --> 00:47:36.119
they have these physical injuries. But a lot of like

850
00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:40.119
these things happen because we as people have to feel

851
00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:44.400
like we can control things that we really can't control, right,

852
00:47:44.559 --> 00:47:47.000
Like you know, you can go down the street and

853
00:47:47.039 --> 00:47:50.239
somebody can attack you for zero reason on that day,

854
00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:53.159
like you've done nothing. You couldn't prevent it, but we

855
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:56.159
like them, you couldn't control it, but you like the

856
00:47:56.199 --> 00:47:59.960
other person exactly. You can't control environment, You can't control

857
00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:02.280
all a lot of things, but I think we like to.

858
00:48:02.360 --> 00:48:05.119
There's that illusion of control, which is a cognitive bias,

859
00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:07.639
and another one is believe in just.

860
00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:09.239
World, and they go hand in hand.

861
00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:12.559
Where like, and I found this sympirically as well, people

862
00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:16.960
who actually exhibit the belief that scum victims aregaillable and

863
00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:19.880
it would never happen to them actually more vulnerable to

864
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:21.679
fall in from email.

865
00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:24.280
I prove that because they're letting their guard down.

866
00:48:24.599 --> 00:48:27.559
Yes, exactly, but it's that belief.

867
00:48:27.559 --> 00:48:30.480
And I think it's because, you know, for us to

868
00:48:30.599 --> 00:48:34.360
have a normal, happy disposition and positive alcohoc on.

869
00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:36.639
Life, we need to feel like we're in control.

870
00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:39.119
And I think a lot of it it comes down

871
00:48:39.159 --> 00:48:43.280
to that that people don't but again they do it

872
00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:45.800
subconsciously because they don't know better.

873
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:48.280
Right like they truly believe they wouldn't.

874
00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:50.800
You know, I've never been in a situation where I

875
00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:54.559
had to defend myself against an assault. I don't know

876
00:48:54.599 --> 00:48:56.719
how I would react. I like to think I'd be

877
00:48:56.840 --> 00:48:58.280
fighting and I'll be right.

878
00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:01.679
But you don't know, right Freeze, you don't know exactly,

879
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:04.599
you don't know. Yeah, so all right, well we have

880
00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:06.119
like one or two minutes left.

881
00:49:06.159 --> 00:49:09.719
So in closing, what are some of the things that

882
00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:18.719
people can do to help recognize a pig butchering scam?

883
00:49:18.840 --> 00:49:22.280
I think that people need to be hyper aware right

884
00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:26.360
now of any electronic communication that they did not initiate.

885
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:29.840
And unfortunately that's where we live right now. That anything

886
00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:34.039
that comes into your email, your text that you do

887
00:49:34.119 --> 00:49:39.880
not recognize immediately, you need to check independently. And so

888
00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:43.559
that comes down to something from your bank, something from Netflix,

889
00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:46.320
or just someone who appearing to want to be your friend.

890
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:49.599
And particularly when we put ourselves in places where we're

891
00:49:49.679 --> 00:49:52.639
kind of looking for friends, like on a dating app

892
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:55.920
or on a Instagram, we need to be cautious of

893
00:49:55.960 --> 00:49:59.760
people that seem interested in being our friends. And we

894
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:07.239
really need to be good evaluators just from the outset

895
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:09.679
that people there are scammers among us.

896
00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:13.920
Yes, absolutely, yeah, anything the ad Martina.

897
00:50:14.039 --> 00:50:16.719
Yeah, I would say, like I've actually even heard of

898
00:50:17.079 --> 00:50:21.480
stories where victims didn't, you know, weren't approached by a

899
00:50:21.559 --> 00:50:22.519
camera on the dating side.

900
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:24.639
They approach this camera on the dating side.

901
00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:25.760
So just being.

902
00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:30.400
Really wary of like even profiles that seem really like

903
00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:34.400
they resonate with you, because I'm pretty sure scammer's open profiles.

904
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:38.800
They'll study who is on the website and they tailor

905
00:50:38.840 --> 00:50:41.679
make these things to be attractive. And another thing I

906
00:50:41.719 --> 00:50:43.719
would say, like when you get the text I get

907
00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:45.920
these text all the time that seem like prog numbers.

908
00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:50.400
That's how big butchering starts. You didn't initiate it, but

909
00:50:50.519 --> 00:50:53.400
you may think, well, it's just the wrong number.

910
00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:54.280
Let me respond.

911
00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:56.880
As soon as you respond, they'll get you in a

912
00:50:56.920 --> 00:50:59.599
conversation and then it's going to be difficult to stop responding.

913
00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:02.960
Really like, it's sad that we have to say these

914
00:51:03.079 --> 00:51:04.519
people don't even be polite.

915
00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:07.639
But exactly, I used to be polite and respond and

916
00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:09.719
say sorry, you have the wrong number. Now it's just

917
00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:11.920
like delete, delete, delete, delete.

918
00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:14.639
I don't care about the party. I don't care about

919
00:51:14.800 --> 00:51:15.920
you know, the delete.

920
00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:19.400
So maybe it was the legitimate party, though.

921
00:51:19.320 --> 00:51:25.119
Joyce might have been a really fun party. Who knows,

922
00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:27.599
I could have right.

923
00:51:27.719 --> 00:51:32.519
Oh well, anyways, thank you guys so much for joining

924
00:51:32.599 --> 00:51:33.039
me today.

925
00:51:33.079 --> 00:51:33.960
This was awesome.

926
00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:37.280
People got a lot of information and Aaron I'll reach

927
00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:40.440
out set up a time to talk more about that.

928
00:51:41.559 --> 00:51:49.360
But thank you guys again, thank you. All right, all

929
00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:53.679
right to end it here, lots of information for everybody

930
00:51:53.679 --> 00:51:57.320
about pig butchering. Thank you so much to Aaron West

931
00:51:57.320 --> 00:51:59.960
and doctor Martina Dove for giving us a deep dive

932
00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:05.199
into this. And as Aaron mentioned, be so very careful

933
00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:08.760
with any communication that you get that you did not initiate.

934
00:52:10.280 --> 00:52:13.400
And as doctor Martina Dove said, you know, you've got

935
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:16.159
to be wary of those text messages that you get

936
00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:17.159
that say.

937
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:18.679
Seems to be a wrong number.

938
00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:21.079
We always want to be polite and respond, but this

939
00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:24.960
is exactly how the pig butchering scammers start these conversations.

940
00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:26.960
So use that delete button.

941
00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:30.400
You don't have to be polite and respond, just use

942
00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:33.880
the delete button. Don't forget to go to our website,

943
00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:36.760
Roseadvocacy dot org. You'll find the social media links on

944
00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:39.679
the homepage scroll to the bottom, sign up for the newsletters,

945
00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:42.679
and you can find all of the episodes on our

946
00:52:42.719 --> 00:52:46.079
YouTube channel and our let's talk about scams dot com

947
00:52:46.360 --> 00:52:49.360
website and until next week.

948
00:52:49.480 --> 00:52:50.039
Thank you all.

949
00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:54.519
Well, that's all the knowledge for this episode. June in

950
00:52:54.760 --> 00:52:58.280
every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on kfour HG

951
00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:03.679
Radio at KFOURHD as Joyce explores a variety of knowledge,

952
00:53:03.719 --> 00:53:07.320
so you have the power to make scam protection your

953
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:11.079
healthy habit. And until then, feel free to reach out

954
00:53:11.119 --> 00:53:13.679
to Joyce and let's talk about scams.