Aug. 19, 2025

Global Crisis of Pig Butchering Scams

Global Crisis of Pig Butchering Scams
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Season 1

Pig butchering scams - we have talked about them before, and it is worth talking about again. Join us as we talk with our guest, Erin West, a globally recognized speaker, and educator specializing organized crime, with a focus on the criminal investigation and prosecution of cryptocurrency-related cases.

Erin will provide more insight about the growing global crisis these scams represent. Tune in to learn more about pig butchering scams and what we can do to prevent them.

Let’s Talk About Scams is broadcast live Tuesdays at 8AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Let’s Talk About Scams TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

Let’s Talk About Scams Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Disclaimer: The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional / legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references; however, R.O.S.E. Resources / Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/let-s-talk-about-scams--6483699/support.

WEBVTT

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This program is designed to provide general information with regards

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to the subject matters covered. This information is given with

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the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station

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are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling,

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professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services

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of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas

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in The information contained in this podcast is intended for

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informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual

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professional legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from

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vetted sources and references. However, Rose Resources outreach to safeguard

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the elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim

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to a scam. Let's talk about scams. It's the must

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listen show for anyone who wants to protect themselves and

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their loved ones from scams. Every Tuesday, eight am Pacific

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time on K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose,

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and her guests. We'll provide valuable insights and practical tips

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on how to recognize and protect yourself from scams. And

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now here is your host, Joyce Petrowski.

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All Right, Welcome back everyone, and yes it's me Joyce.

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I know I haven't been here for probably about I

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think six weeks. I was on vacation for a little

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bit and then had some major surgery. But I'm recovering

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and I'm back and I understand Brian took good care

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of you guys while I was gone, and you will

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see him back next month for an episode. So you

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can find more resources at our website, Roseadvocacy dot org.

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You can sign up for our newsletters. We send one

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out via email and one via snail mail every month.

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I just go to the homepage and scroll down to them.

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You'll see where the sign ups are. You'll see our

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social media links Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and YouTube, and all

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of our radio show episodes and shorts are hosted on

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our YouTube page. Or we also have a Let's Talk

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about Scams dot com website where they're all hosted as well.

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So today I'm so excited we're going to we have

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a guest, Aaron West, that we're going to talk about

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cryptocurrency and pig butchering. So Aaron's the founder of Operation Shamrock,

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a global nonprofit uniting law enforcement industry and everyday citizens

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to disrupt the world's fastest growing form of trans national

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organized crime, pig butchering scams. After twenty six years as

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a prosecutor, including eight on the REACT High Tech Task Force,

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where she became known for her relentless pursuit of crypto criminals,

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Erin now leads across border fight to expose the scam economy,

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mobilize action, and protect both victims and the trafficked workers

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forced to run these schemes. She's also host of Stolen,

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a podcast that brings listeners inside the darkest corners of

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the scandemic, where love is weaponized, billions are laundered, and

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real people pay the price. A sought after speaker and educator,

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Aaron continues to equip and inspire audiences around the world

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to use their skills, platforms, and tools to fight back.

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So let's welcome Erin to the show.

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Hey Erin, Hello, thank you so much for inviting me today.

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Yeah. Yeah, so, why don't you just give us I

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read your bio, but just tell us a little bit

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about what you do and then we're going to get

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right into this.

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Yeah.

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I was a prosecutor for twenty six and a half

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years and the last eight years of my career I

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did tech crimes, and the last three I was just

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inundated with people who were victims of scams, things that

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started out as what they thought was an innocent interaction

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on a phone that led to a romance that ultimately

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led to them losing all of their money in a

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new scam called pig butchering. And I'm delighted to be

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here to educate about it.

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Nice Nice and I had heard about pig butchering a

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couple of years ago. In fact, I talked to a

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gentleman I believe he was up in the state of

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Washington who actually went through and told me his experience

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about meeting somebody online and they had a friendship. It

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wasn't necessarily a love interest, but she started talking to

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him about this investment and all of these things, and

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he said, I'm normally the type of person that I

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won't invest or give my money unless I research and

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I know what's going on. He goes, and I had

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no idea what cryptocurrency was, so I started researching it,

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and he said, and lo and behold, pig butchering scams

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came up and there was a checklist, and I read

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through the checklist, and there were she hit every single

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thing on the checklist right. And so that's one of

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the things we tell people is do your research right.

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If you don't know about like cryptocurrency, do your research,

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find out you know what it is, what it's about,

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and there's a good chance you're going to see stuff

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out there about scams. So and I know, I personally

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don't really know much about cryptocurrency. I always equate it

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to it seems to be like it's some form of money,

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but it's like in the air, you can't touch it right,

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and it's like it just I don't know. I'm not

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comfortable with it. So tell us more about the crypto. Yeah,

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you've raised a couple of really interesting issues. I think

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the first thing is that we don't need to be

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afraid of crypto. We I think a lot of people

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would like to make it feel like it's so hard

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to understand, it's so complicated. But quite honestly, if you

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can understand delta sky miles, if you can understand a

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stack of poker chips.

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You can understand cryptocurrency.

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It's essentially we all agree for the moment that this

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stack of poker chips is worth one hundred dollars per

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poker chip, and you can pade those poker chips for

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jewelry at this place or now even Christie's says you

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can buy real estate with that cryptocurrency.

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Oh okay.

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More and more, we're going to see cryptocurrency adopted as

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a way to transact other in other ways.

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And we're also seeing that.

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Really mainstream banking is adopting this in a way that

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you can move easily convert money back and forth from

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cryptocurrency to US dollars through your bank account combined with

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a currency investment account.

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So we don't want to be conc we don't want to.

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Allow ourselves to be misled about cryptocurrency. That's a good point, right,

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And so the reason the scammers have chosen to use

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cryptocurrency for really good reason and for exactly what you said,

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that we don't know much about it, and so they

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can tell us all kinds of things about it, and

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we generally with.

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No idea, right yeah.

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Yeah.

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Another thing that you said that I found interesting too

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was the idea that essentially that because it's hard to understand,

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we should be researching it. And so what I will

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tell you about this particular scam is that this is

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a mental manipulation like.

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I have ever seen before in my life.

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What and I know that doctor Dove is a frequent guest,

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so I know you are familiar with her her really

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well organized thoughts about how manipulative these scams are.

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Seems like it's a romance scam on steroids.

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That's exactly what it is. That's exactly what it is.

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And so these scammers are building on two different things. One,

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they're building this really trusted relationship that for a lot

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of people who come out of it, they say, this

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was the this was the most I've never felt so

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cared for.

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I've never felt so seen, heard, understood, loved.

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And Doctor do will tell you that is definitely part

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of the technique, right, Yeah, it's highly manipulative.

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Yeah, it just plays on your emotions. Right. They they're

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now like with romance scams, I know a lot of times,

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you know, they find people on Facebook. I think that's

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kind of like the number one platform that they find people.

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And especially like if you have a widow or widower

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as you're you know, your status, that's kind of a

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red flag, but that's exactly what they're looking for or

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if you've talked about, right, your your loved one passing

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and and all that stuff, and they're just exploiting that

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loneliness and that that need to for love and to

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have a partner again. Right, And but this pig butchering

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is just it's not. My understanding is it's they're not

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necessarily professing their love that they're going to come back

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to wherever you're at, or come to wherever you're at

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and marry you and and all of that. It's they're

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striking up a friendship to get you to trust them.

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I would say that more frequently it's a love relationship.

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And I think that sometimes people don't want to be

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honest about that because I think people engage in this

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quite frequently when they're already married.

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And and what you have hit upon.

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Is something that is super relevant to this, and that's

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the loneliness crisis.

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We've got a crisis.

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The World Health Organization has acknowledged this that essentially people

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it's something like one in five people report being lonely

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once a week or.

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Some high number.

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Like we've got a really big crisis where people didn't

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come out of COVID well, and some people still haven't

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gone back into the job where.

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They were before. So we've got we've got.

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A significant number of people who just would really welcome

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some companionship. And so when that text shows up on there,

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this is so funny.

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I just looked at my phone to.

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Give you an example, and as I look at my phone,

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I'm getting one of those job scams. Somebody has reviewed

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my So that's yesterday. That's how pervasive it is. So

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what I would say is that is that when you

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get something on your phone on Facebook, somebody wanting to

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be your friend. For all a lot of people, that's

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a welcome distraction from the rest of their life.

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And then what you talked about is exactly right.

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That they build a whether it's a friendship or a

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romantic relationship, but they do it over time.

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This is a long con.

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They don't start talking about cryptocurrency on day three or

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day thirteen.

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What they really do is they build up this trust.

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That absolute trust. Yeah.

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Yeah, And by the time they get to talking about cryptocurrency,

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you are in a situation where, wow, you think you

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have found the person that meets all your needs. And

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along the way that person has been showing you an

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elevated lifestyle they've been showing you that they travel to

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Hawaii and that they drive a range Rover, and you

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have every reason to believe when they say that they

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made their money in cryptocurrency, that that's how they.

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Did it right, right, And there are a lot of

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people out there that have made a lot of money

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truthfully in crystal currency. And let me ask you this question.

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So I hear a lot from people, and I read

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stories about retired people, older adults going into a gas

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station or a shopping mall and just feeding cash into

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a cryptocurrency ATM machine. What was the whole purpose of

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bringing those cryptocurrency ATM machines out? Because I'm trying to

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figure out I'm thinking that if somebody is legitimately investing

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in cryptocurrency, they don't need to go to a cryptocurrency

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ATM machine.

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Now, the purpose of those machines is to steal your

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mom's money. That's the purpose of those machines. And you're

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absolutely right that if I'm legitimately investing in cryptocurrency, I

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am going through a license, not a license, but a

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regular crypto exchange that we'reamiliar with the name of it,

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like crypto dot com or coinbase and I'm not paying

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the exorbitant fees that are associated with a CRYPTOATM.

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There's just no.

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Reason why I would be taking out cash and putting

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it and doing the lengthy process of putting it in

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one hundred dollars by one hundred dollars into a machine

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when I can electronically move all of that, right.

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I mean, I was thinking about that recently and it

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was like, I can't figure out a legitimate reason why

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a legitimate investor in cryptocurrency would have a need to

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go to a cryptocurrency ATM. It just didn't make sense.

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00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:44.360
But yet they're all over the place they are, and.

228
00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:50.759
You know they when you talk to people who run

229
00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:53.720
those machines, they will give you some stories about how

230
00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:56.679
they're for unbanked people, but the fact is that's not

231
00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:00.480
where they're located. They're not located in that population. They're

232
00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:03.559
frequently located. I have a friend who works with me

233
00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:07.159
at Operation Shamrock, who works in a wealthy community in

234
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:11.639
New Hampshire with something like fifteen thousand residents, and she

235
00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:15.759
says there are thirty five crypto ATMs there. You know,

236
00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:21.080
nobody's unbanked in this retirement community in New Hampshire and

237
00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:26.159
what they are is retired, wealthy people who make great

238
00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:31.080
targets for this. And so what we're seeing, Joyce that's

239
00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:34.799
really impressive is we're seeing states stand up to this,

240
00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:39.559
and we're seeing regulation of these machines and even outlining

241
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:45.320
of these machines and certain municipalities. So I'm grateful that

242
00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:48.759
there are can do people who are ready to stand

243
00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:51.039
up and say not in my town, we're just not

244
00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:51.679
going to do that.

245
00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:52.399
And so.

246
00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:59.000
It's always good to see people standing up for the vulnerable,

247
00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:01.639
and and that makes me happy.

248
00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:05.600
Yeah, I don't know where this story came out of,

249
00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:10.039
someplace in the United States where and it was on

250
00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:12.879
social media. This gentleman had walked into a gas station

251
00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:18.279
and he saw the owner literally taking the cryptocurrency machine out,

252
00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:21.000
and he started talking to him and he's like, why

253
00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:24.480
are you He's like, because I see all these older,

254
00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:30.360
elderly ladies coming in and just feeding this machine full

255
00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.480
of cash, and I know they're getting scammed. And he

256
00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:35.679
goes and I don't want to be any part of this.

257
00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:40.320
And I thought, good, good for you, you know, for

258
00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:44.039
for doing that. But I also had heard that with

259
00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:48.759
them at the federal level, that they've got a Cryptocurrency

260
00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:53.720
Committee whatever it is that's that's starting to really look

261
00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:56.559
into this, and they're supposed to be looking at putting

262
00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:00.919
more safeguards out there. Do you do you work with

263
00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:03.120
any of them on that or have you have you

264
00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:04.159
heard any anything?

265
00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:06.559
Well, I'm not totally familiar with that, but what I

266
00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:09.519
am familiar with is the AARP has done a really

267
00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:17.799
amazing job of drafting legislation and helping to shepherd it

268
00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:20.960
through in different states, and they've worked with some of

269
00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:25.240
the law enforcement members from the Crypto Coalition that I

270
00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:30.240
work with that to get to get state different different

271
00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:34.039
states to create regulations that make it more difficult for

272
00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:36.559
these scammers to do business.

273
00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:41.919
Good good, So are the in your work? Have you

274
00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:44.279
found our I mean we all I think we pretty

275
00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:49.039
much all know scammers are on Facebook, right, there's so

276
00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:52.159
many fake accounts out there. We've actually reported a lot

277
00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:55.320
of them and we get the cursory response back. We

278
00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:57.960
haven't seen where this has caused any problems, so we're

279
00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:00.240
not going to take it down. And it's like, if

280
00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:03.559
you would just look at this and you could do

281
00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:06.599
some reverse image searches, you could do things that are

282
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.440
at your fingertips to figure out that this is not

283
00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:14.680
the true person's profile, right. And I don't know if

284
00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:18.119
they're getting any better at cracking down on that or not,

285
00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:21.640
but I know we haven't seen in profiles that we've

286
00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:24.559
reported that they've been willing to take them down.

287
00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:29.640
This is really one of my hot buttons because I

288
00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:35.079
get angry at you know, it's very easy to say, oh,

289
00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:37.359
this is all happening overseas and we can't do anything

290
00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:38.160
about it, but.

291
00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:40.079
The foul right here in the United States.

292
00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:43.759
Yeah, the fact is we've got American companies that aren't

293
00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:47.880
enabling these bad actors to access our friends and family.

294
00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:53.039
And these companies have the best tech in the world.

295
00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:57.559
They absolutely could identify just like you're saying, do a

296
00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.599
reverse image search, start looking at where in the world

297
00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:02.599
these people are logging on from.

298
00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:06.279
The addresses right right, And there's just a.

299
00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:11.000
Million different ways that these bad actors could be identified

300
00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:12.400
and removed from their platform.

301
00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:14.160
And the fact is they're not doing it.

302
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:16.839
They're not doing it in a proactive way, and when

303
00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:20.440
we are reporting it to them, we are met with

304
00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:23.359
exactly the response that you got. If this doesn't violate

305
00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:27.960
our community standards and Unfortunately, that's where we find ourselves,

306
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:31.680
and it's really not acceptable when we're not talking about

307
00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:35.240
a small problem. We are talking about having a generation's

308
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:37.440
worth of wealth stolen from us.

309
00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:38.319
Absolutely, and.

310
00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:44.240
There's an obligation to be a better world citizen than that.

311
00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:48.400
No, absolutely, I mean, you know, we give when we

312
00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:51.319
do our program out in the community. You know, it's

313
00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:55.000
our vision is retirement should be the best years of

314
00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:57.920
your life. It needs to be protected at all costs.

315
00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:02.440
And it's like you spend your life life, raising your family, working,

316
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:06.480
saving your money, you pay your house off, and you're like,

317
00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:09.240
I've got this nest egg and this is how I

318
00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:12.079
want to live out my retirement. I talk to a

319
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:14.920
financial planner and you know, if they go that route,

320
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:18.640
and I'm good. You know, I've got enough money to

321
00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:21.400
live till I'm one hundred or ninety five or you know,

322
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:24.599
whatever it is. But then you get the scammer that

323
00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:29.960
comes along praise on their emotions because we are that

324
00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:33.519
generation is very trusting. I grew up in that generation.

325
00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:36.880
We're very trusting. Right, I even today find myself is

326
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:40.480
going find myself going, oh I trust it a little

327
00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:43.400
bit too much on that one, right, And It's hard.

328
00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:46.440
It's a hard habit to break, you know. Hopefully Chicago

329
00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:49.440
doesn't come after me for going after with their title

330
00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:52.559
of their song, but it is, you know, because it's

331
00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:55.880
a good feeling to have that you can trust people.

332
00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:58.440
And now all of a sudden, everyone's telling you you

333
00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:00.200
can't trust anybody.

334
00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:03.039
And isn't that terrible? And is that where we want

335
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:04.400
to be? Is that where we want to live?

336
00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:07.319
It's it's horrendous that that's where we find ourselves. But

337
00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:11.680
that is exactly That's the message I give everyone when

338
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:14.160
when I'm asked, like, what can I do about this? Well,

339
00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:18.000
the fact is you cannot trust any electronic communication that

340
00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:21.920
you did not solicit, period as everybody's a scammer until

341
00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:25.440
you find out otherwise. And I'm raising two young men,

342
00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:28.480
and I'll tell you, like, that's that's my message to

343
00:20:28.519 --> 00:20:30.640
them is do not trust anything that's on there and

344
00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:33.880
make them prove themselves. Don't click through, go to that

345
00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:39.720
website yourself and log in and find out absolutely.

346
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:41.079
Yeah.

347
00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:45.920
And the piece that you bring up that really resonates

348
00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:50.880
with me is that people have worked their lives to

349
00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:56.359
enjoy these years and what we're watching happen in real

350
00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:00.400
time is that more and more of those retire ease

351
00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:03.039
are getting stripped of everything they have.

352
00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:06.440
It's just awful and it's just not.

353
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.200
Recoverable at that point.

354
00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:11.640
And people are going back to work that thought they

355
00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:17.119
were long done, and it's people are losing their homes.

356
00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:19.480
Like this isn't a small amount of money.

357
00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:23.200
We're not talking about the romance scams of yesteryear, where

358
00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:27.799
perhaps you thought, you know, you were sending money for

359
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:32.160
a sick child or a business situation, and you lost

360
00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:35.319
maybe fifty to seventy five thousand dollars. We're talking about

361
00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:41.079
people losing every penny they have. Have a million dollars, yes,

362
00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:43.720
and that's routine in California where I come from. Like

363
00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:48.400
the numbers are crazy, and then again like it doesn't

364
00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:50.680
matter what the number is, because it's it's what the

365
00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:55.440
number is to that person, and that person has lost everything.

366
00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:58.200
Right right, I mean, somebody could lose one hundred thousand,

367
00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:00.599
and it means one thing to one peron, and it

368
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:04.920
means something totally different to another. One person might be like, Okay,

369
00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:07.599
well I can absorb that. Another person might be like,

370
00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:10.680
that's my life savings. I now got to lie on

371
00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:14.880
the government for my housing, my food, my basic needs.

372
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:18.559
So then let's talk about that, right, But now we're

373
00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:23.279
creating obligations on the government to take care of retirees

374
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:26.920
that were previously set up well exactly.

375
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:30.920
And this is preventable. Rights, it's preventable. And that's why

376
00:22:31.079 --> 00:22:33.400
when when I look at Facebook and they're not taking

377
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:39.200
those those profiles down, it's like you're going to wait

378
00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:44.000
until someone's reported that they've lost their life savings and

379
00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:46.680
then you're going to react to it. And I think

380
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:52.839
we've we've become a society of reacting and it's like

381
00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:56.079
with us, it rose, it's like, no, this is preventable,

382
00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:59.880
and it's preventable through education and getting people to understand

383
00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:03.160
you know that this is going on, and you can't

384
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:07.359
trust people and you need to be your advocate, right

385
00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:10.759
and have your trusted person and all of that stuff,

386
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:14.960
because in the end, unfortunately it's you're either going to

387
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:18.599
give the money away or you're not right. It's the

388
00:23:18.680 --> 00:23:22.079
scammers can have all this different technology out there, and yeah,

389
00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:24.680
you know they could kind of overtake here if they

390
00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:27.519
figure out your account log in that they could and

391
00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:30.359
you've reused it over everything, you know, they could get

392
00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:32.240
into your bank account and stuff. But I think a

393
00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:35.519
lot of the scams are coming from the social engineering

394
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:39.279
and how they're manipulating people's emotions.

395
00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:44.720
You're right, and you talked about something significant before when

396
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:48.279
you talked about a trusting generation. So the scammers have

397
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.720
studied us. They've had people with PhD studying us. They

398
00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:55.440
know what works. They've been at this for years, unimpeded,

399
00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:59.720
with no friction, and so they know that people respond

400
00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:06.680
to authority, they respond to immediacy, and what really works

401
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:11.400
for people of that generation is to mislead them that

402
00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:14.839
there is that their money is at risk in some way,

403
00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:18.880
or that their money has been tied to child pornography,

404
00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:22.359
or that there's a warrant for their arrest, or they

405
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:25.240
haven't paid something that they need to pay.

406
00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:27.400
They didn't show up for jury duty, right. I just

407
00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:31.519
agree that. I just read that recently. This lady lost

408
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:33.960
I want to say it was like twenty thousand dollars

409
00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:36.799
or something, and it was because she was like, well,

410
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:41.240
I didn't know, maybe maybe I did miss jury duty, right,

411
00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:44.559
And so it was that she perceived that they were

412
00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:47.279
the authority and that they knew what was going on,

413
00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:49.839
and that this was urgent, she needed to pay it

414
00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:52.839
or else she risks going to jail and right, and

415
00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:57.680
it just puts your whole mindset into an emotional state

416
00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:01.319
and you're not thinking rationally. And this is one thing

417
00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:03.559
that we tell people is like, I think we can

418
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:06.559
all think back to some point in our life where

419
00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:10.039
we have made a decision based on emotions, and then

420
00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:13.799
whether it's a couple hours later, a day later, whatever,

421
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:16.599
you've thought about it and gone, oh, if I had

422
00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:19.960
been thinking rationally, I never would have made that decision.

423
00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:24.359
But like you said, scammers know that they've studied this

424
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:30.279
and they're very very good at what they're doing. They

425
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:33.839
really are, which leads me to say, well, why aren't

426
00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:37.920
we very good at stopping this? Right, They've put a

427
00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:42.720
ton of energy into how to take our money, and

428
00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:46.200
I feel like I don't feel like I know that

429
00:25:46.279 --> 00:25:49.279
there aren't enough people on the other side saying well,

430
00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:52.200
we're going to put energy into figuring out how to

431
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:55.559
make sure you can't access our people, and that if

432
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:58.960
you do access our people, they are educated about the

433
00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:01.799
fact that you are looking for them, right and trying

434
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:04.200
to steal their mind off, right, that they're going to

435
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:08.079
stop it So it's just going to take time, I think,

436
00:26:08.119 --> 00:26:11.559
and getting out there and talking to more people and

437
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:14.640
educating them. And it's just one of those topics, at

438
00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:18.160
least in my opinion, that I've found, you know, in

439
00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:21.920
talking to people to get them to set up the program.

440
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:23.960
Right is a lot of people don't want to think

441
00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:28.079
about scams. Right, it's not the fun thing. It's not

442
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:31.319
having an entertainer come perform, or having the ice cream

443
00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:34.680
truck come or having somebody come play bingo or you

444
00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:38.000
know these games. It's a topic that nobody wants to

445
00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:42.559
think about. But it's to the point now where it

446
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.240
has to be thought about. I know, we follow the

447
00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:49.720
IC three reports that the FBI puts out, and California

448
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:52.799
is always in the top three. You know, Arizona is

449
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:55.880
always in the top ten. You know, California and Florida,

450
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:58.839
I think are always in the top three. The other state,

451
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.279
I think kind of varies. But we've been Arizona's been

452
00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:05.279
four and six in losses, and if we look at

453
00:27:05.319 --> 00:27:09.200
the losses, and this is what's reported right right, which

454
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:11.480
is a small percentage, But if we look at what

455
00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:15.960
Arizona's in sixty plus lost in twenty twenty compared to

456
00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:20.359
what they lost in twenty twenty four six hundred percent increase.

457
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:23.240
I can imagine it is at least that much for

458
00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:25.839
California for sure.

459
00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:28.119
I don't have that specific number, but what I do

460
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:36.480
know is just the increase in crypto fraud losses are

461
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:39.799
up forty percent over last year, and those, again, like those.

462
00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:41.000
Are what is reported.

463
00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:44.440
And so when I see the six hundred percent number

464
00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:46.759
that you're giving me, even the forty percent number that

465
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:52.559
I'm saying, is that where else is there that dramatic

466
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:56.359
of an increase in a crime typology and nobody's on

467
00:27:56.440 --> 00:28:01.720
top of it, and that's just unacceptable. We don't we

468
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:05.880
don't have a plan, and we are getting kicked in

469
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:11.680
the face and on repeat. And so I have grave

470
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:16.440
concerns not only about the amount of financial loss, but

471
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:20.240
I have grave concerns about what this does to our society.

472
00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:23.279
You brought up the idea of we're trusting people, and

473
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:27.960
I think that's a really a nice attribute it and

474
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.960
we are we are getting to a point where we

475
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:38.119
can't be that trusting, trusting group. And you know, I'll

476
00:28:38.119 --> 00:28:40.200
give you an example, like I needed someone to cut

477
00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:43.720
the trees in my backyard, and I went on vacation

478
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:47.240
and he said, I'll cut them all you're gone, and

479
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:49.240
when you come back, you pay me. And we're trusting

480
00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:51.880
each other that if he cuts those trees, I'm going

481
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:55.000
to pay him, and I'm trusting him that I hired

482
00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:56.440
him to do it and that he's going to do it.

483
00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:59.880
And that's a stupid example, but the point is that

484
00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:03.480
if we lose, if every single thing we do has

485
00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:08.359
to be verified and es road, and we lose just

486
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:12.480
some of the the kindness and ease of doing transactions

487
00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:16.480
with people, and right here we ourselves.

488
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:18.839
It's a good attribute to be able to see the

489
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:24.119
good in people, right and to trust people. And now,

490
00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:26.559
like you said, it's like, okay, well you might on

491
00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:29.759
the outside act like you trust, but on the inside,

492
00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:33.079
it's like you've got to have that skepticism, right, And

493
00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:39.559
we call it a healthy skepticism, right, because, yes, being

494
00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:42.680
a victim of a scam and losing money hurts financially,

495
00:29:43.240 --> 00:29:47.680
but the emotional and the psychological toll it takes. And

496
00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:51.720
and unfortunately, you know, we see suicide happen with the

497
00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:58.039
older adults because of this exploitation and these scams. So

498
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:03.720
in your bio. You had mentioned that you worked I

499
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:07.279
want to make sure I get it right the growing

500
00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:11.839
form of transnational organized crimes. So are you working with

501
00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:15.599
or let me preface that, do you see that a

502
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:20.279
lot of these pig butchering scams are coming from other

503
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:24.160
countries or you seeing a lot of it starting to

504
00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:26.400
creep up in the United States as well.

505
00:30:27.160 --> 00:30:30.160
So what we know is that the United States and

506
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.880
other countries are under attack, and they are under attacked

507
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:38.480
by Chinese organized crime. Chinese organized crime has set up

508
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:44.440
scam centers all over Southeast Asia and now in other

509
00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:51.640
parts of the world, where they are boiler rooms. There

510
00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:55.680
are mills of people who are living six people to

511
00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:59.599
a dormitory room, and their job is to steal our

512
00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:01.200
money sixteen hours a day.

513
00:31:01.640 --> 00:31:03.880
And if they don't steal the money, they are beaten.

514
00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:08.880
And so I'll often talk to victims and they'll say, oh,

515
00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:10.680
I should have known this, I should have known.

516
00:31:10.759 --> 00:31:11.759
Well, no, you shouldn't.

517
00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:15.920
There's no way that you are you you're going to

518
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:21.759
win a battle of psychological manipulation against someone who does

519
00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:25.680
this for a living.

520
00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:25.480
Seven days a week.

521
00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:28.960
Yeah, And so that's our situation, and it's growing. And

522
00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:32.440
so when I say transnational organized crime. I mean that

523
00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:36.000
there are organized crime syndicates that are running this in

524
00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:41.000
a very sophisticated, industrialized way against the rest of the world.

525
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:44.960
And they're doing it by using human trafficked workers, many

526
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:48.279
of whom are from Africa to do this work. And

527
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:52.759
they like the Africans because they speak English and they

528
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:58.400
can be easily talked into leaving their African country believing

529
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:02.200
that they are going to make more money in a

530
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:06.640
data entry center in Bangkok, and then when they get there,

531
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:10.759
they find out that they have been tripped, they've been deceived,

532
00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:14.720
and now they are under lock and key. They are

533
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:17.519
put into a scam facility that's guarded by men with

534
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:20.440
AK forty seven's and this is their job and they

535
00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:21.119
cannot leave.

536
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:25.279
Wow. Wow, I mean that's just you know, you have

537
00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:29.799
the whole the whole thing of scamming people, right, which

538
00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:32.680
is just totally awful, But now you have the added

539
00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:35.960
layer of the people that are doing it are trafficked.

540
00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:39.200
They're They're not there by choice.

541
00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:42.440
No, And I think that's a surprise to a lot

542
00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:44.960
of people. I often hear people be like, oh, I

543
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:47.880
was messing with this guy, and I was like, yeah,

544
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:48.640
that guy.

545
00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:53.759
Is being human trafficked. And I was talking to my dentist,

546
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:54.319
and my.

547
00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:59.920
Dentist was saying that, you know, recently, she keeps getting

548
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:02.880
these these job scam things. And she responded and she

549
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:05.640
was like, please stop sending me these. And the person

550
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:09.440
responded and said thank you for at least responding so

551
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:12.519
that I don't get beaten. And she was she was

552
00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:14.359
talking to me as she's cleaning my teeth. She's like,

553
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:16.400
what is what is this guy talking about? And I

554
00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:19.440
was like, oh, well, they have quotas. They have quotas

555
00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:23.000
of they have to engage in conversations with people, and

556
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:26.759
you you responded to a text and that that's a

557
00:33:26.839 --> 00:33:31.559
win in their column. So wow, it's a it's a

558
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:36.720
very dire situation. And it's kind of when I started

559
00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:40.039
learning about pig butchering and I started learning about Oh

560
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:44.480
my goodness, you know people are losing money. Oh my goodness,

561
00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:48.680
it's all their money, and wow, they're taking out loans

562
00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:53.279
to pay the quote unquote taxes. And then oh my goodness,

563
00:33:53.319 --> 00:33:56.359
this is being run at an industrial level, and wow,

564
00:33:56.920 --> 00:33:59.160
are you kidding me? The people that are behind it

565
00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:03.519
are human tracks. You can't write a movie like this.

566
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:09.119
It's insanity, right right, it's what's that phrase? You can't

567
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:10.000
make this stuff up?

568
00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:11.039
You really can't.

569
00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:17.320
Yeah, it's just so with a lot of it happening

570
00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:22.199
in China, you know, or run by by the Chinese

571
00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:29.760
in the Asian countries and stuff. Have you seen during

572
00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:33.559
prosecuting and things like that, that if you're dealing with

573
00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:39.760
someone that's been the scammer in the United States versus

574
00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:43.000
someone you know, whether it's the organized crime or it's

575
00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:47.280
it's a handful of people over in another country, it

576
00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:51.599
makes a difference if you're able to recover any of

577
00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:52.719
the money that was stolen.

578
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:56.880
Yeah, I think it's important to.

579
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:03.039
Set this stage for what victims can expect because the

580
00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:08.360
fact of the matter is nobody is being prosecuted for this.

581
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:14.239
That's the crazy part There there have been very few

582
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:19.760
arrests and almost zero convictions involving these kind of cases.

583
00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:24.360
But what there has been is some financial recovery. So

584
00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:25.760
what I would say.

585
00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:28.599
To victims is that when I talk to victims, I

586
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:30.360
always say, Okay, well there are two there are two

587
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:31.000
pieces here.

588
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:34.199
One is anybody going to get arrested? Probably not?

589
00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:38.920
Number Two, is there a way to recover your money.

590
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:41.719
I think the kindest thing we can do for.

591
00:35:41.800 --> 00:35:45.239
Victims is to be honest with them and to level

592
00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:49.199
set expectations from the outset. And I think what is

593
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:52.000
what is happening in the United States is they are

594
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:56.960
reporting to the FBI and they are not hearing anything back,

595
00:35:57.480 --> 00:35:59.960
and they are going to local law enforcement. And look,

596
00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:03.199
the law enforcement is saying either we don't do crypto,

597
00:36:03.559 --> 00:36:05.559
or we'll get to it or something.

598
00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:09.480
But they don't have answers, and they need answers. And so.

599
00:36:12.559 --> 00:36:14.719
One of the proudest things that I did as a

600
00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:18.760
prosecutor was in working with my task force, we figured

601
00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:24.880
out a way to recover stolen funds for victis. Now,

602
00:36:24.920 --> 00:36:28.719
cryptocurrency is confusing to people, but quite honestly, can be

603
00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:33.039
a blessing. The beauty of cryptocurrency is it's as if

604
00:36:33.719 --> 00:36:37.639
we all can read from the same book and say, okay,

605
00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:42.159
Joyce oh. On July twenty eighth, Joyce sent Aaron twenty

606
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:44.679
five dollars, Like, we can all look at that same

607
00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:46.400
ledger and maybe it doesn't say Joyce.

608
00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:47.280
Maybe it has like.

609
00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:50.039
A string of letters and numbers, and maybe mine also

610
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:51.679
has a string of letters and numbers, which you.

611
00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:54.079
Can tie those back to the account.

612
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:57.199
Owner, Yes you can, okay, and so we can all

613
00:36:57.239 --> 00:36:57.599
see it.

614
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:01.719
And so what the team did at the REACT Task

615
00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:05.079
Force in Santa Clara County was figure out how to

616
00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:07.079
trace your stolen money.

617
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:11.800
And we traced it to an overseas.

618
00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:14.440
Crypto exchange and by that I mean it was Binance,

619
00:37:14.519 --> 00:37:17.880
and they do not operate in the United States because

620
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:22.039
they didn't want to be subject to United States rules, okay.

621
00:37:22.119 --> 00:37:23.639
And so for a lot of people that would have

622
00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:24.719
been an easy dead end.

623
00:37:25.559 --> 00:37:29.199
But we operated from a what if we could point

624
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:32.239
of view, and so we reached out to finance and said,

625
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:33.440
here's what's happening.

626
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:36.320
Can you help us with this?

627
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:38.800
And they said, well, we will accept a search warrant

628
00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:42.880
signed by a judge, okay. So then we had to

629
00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:46.199
figure out how to wrangle that through an antiquated legal

630
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:49.320
system that is not ready for cryptocurrency seizures.

631
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:53.440
But we did that and then by the end of

632
00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:54.639
twenty twenty two, we.

633
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:57.000
Were able to get money back to eight victims, and

634
00:37:57.039 --> 00:37:59.199
by the end of twenty twenty three, we were able

635
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:02.199
to get money back to twenty three more victims.

636
00:38:02.679 --> 00:38:03.840
So it can be done.

637
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:07.480
And I work with a coalition of twenty four hundred

638
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:12.079
law enforcement agents now, and we routinely are able to

639
00:38:12.199 --> 00:38:13.039
make seizures.

640
00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:14.000
Nice.

641
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:18.480
Even if we are routinely making seizures, the number of

642
00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:24.920
victims out there is so massive that it's still like

643
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:27.039
winning a lottery to be able to get any of

644
00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:27.719
your money back.

645
00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:31.159
And if you get some back, is it like pennies

646
00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:33.599
on the dollar, because, like you said, there's so many

647
00:38:33.639 --> 00:38:35.840
people that have been victimized.

648
00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:38.760
Yeah, and you know, the bad guys are really good

649
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:41.440
at what they do. We talked about how adept they

650
00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:44.679
are at mind games, and they're really good at money laundering,

651
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:45.639
and they.

652
00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:49.800
Have money all over. Yeah, they're moving your money super quickly.

653
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:54.639
And so that's where we find ourselves is in a

654
00:38:54.679 --> 00:38:59.239
situation where by the time a victim gets up the

655
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:03.159
nerve to report it to someone who knows how to

656
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:06.280
do this work, frequently the money is already gone.

657
00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:09.039
Yeah. And you know, that's something we heard a few

658
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:12.880
years ago from one of the assistant US attorneys in

659
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:19.960
Arizona was that they were seeing that that a lot

660
00:39:19.960 --> 00:39:26.199
of older people were being money mules and they didn't know.

661
00:39:27.159 --> 00:39:29.559
They thought they were just doing someone a favor. They

662
00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:32.480
were being nice for whatever excuse the person gave them

663
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:34.960
as to why they couldn't, you know, transfer the money.

664
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:39.400
And it was all done in the guys to if

665
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:43.239
they can keep the money going from account to account

666
00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:47.320
to account. By the time law enforcement catches up with it,

667
00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:50.920
it's already out of the country and depending on where

668
00:39:50.920 --> 00:39:54.519
it goes in what other country, A lot of it

669
00:39:54.559 --> 00:39:56.639
depends on is that country going to be willing to

670
00:39:56.639 --> 00:39:59.960
work with the United States? Right, Some countries are just

671
00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:02.880
like no, you know, for whatever reason, you know, they

672
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:05.400
have enough, they don't have the manpower because they've got

673
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:07.639
all this other crime of their own that they're working on,

674
00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:12.679
or they just choose not to. But yeah, that's you

675
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:15.400
know that. It's why I just am so much into

676
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:19.400
the whole prevention side of it, right, because even if

677
00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:21.719
they were to get half of their money back, right,

678
00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:24.679
it's great that you can get some or you know,

679
00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:26.599
some of the money back and stuff like that, But

680
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:31.840
the emotional toll that someone has to go through between

681
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.480
getting realizing they've been scammed and getting their money back,

682
00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:39.320
I mean, how do they recover from that? I mean,

683
00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:40.440
that's enough.

684
00:40:41.639 --> 00:40:44.199
Yeah, I was going to say I was a prosecutor

685
00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:45.239
for twenty six years.

686
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:48.159
I did murder cases, I did sexual assault, I did

687
00:40:48.199 --> 00:40:50.280
people who had been kidnapped and left for dead.

688
00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:53.480
I right, like really horrific things.

689
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:57.239
But quite honestly, I have never seen victims as destroyed

690
00:40:57.800 --> 00:41:03.840
as these financial crime victim and that is because they've

691
00:41:03.880 --> 00:41:08.679
lost their entire financial footing, their confidence, their security.

692
00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:11.840
But they also at that same.

693
00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:14.639
Time, they are losing this person that became a really

694
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:18.320
trusted ally, whether a friend, a loved one, someone they

695
00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:21.159
thought they were going to marry, whatever it was, this

696
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:25.039
person was significant to them. And then to realize, oh

697
00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:27.800
my god, that person was behind this thing from the

698
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:32.280
get go. It's more than some people can handle. And

699
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:37.039
I routinely saw people getting mental health treatment, even checking

700
00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:42.280
themselves in doing self harm and ultimately suicide.

701
00:41:42.519 --> 00:41:43.360
I would I.

702
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:48.280
Hear from adult children whose parent has committed suicide.

703
00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:49.519
Saying I didn't know.

704
00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:53.239
What happened until I started going through his computer and

705
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.280
I realized what had happened to him.

706
00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:59.000
Yeah, and you know the whole reason why I started

707
00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:02.840
Rose four years ago. Actually, what is the date today.

708
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:05.079
The August nineteenth.

709
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:08.719
We're coming up here on the twenty third, will be

710
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:12.960
exactly four years that congratulation and in business. Was I

711
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:16.360
had a loved one that was in a romance scam? Yeah,

712
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:20.920
she had lost her spouse, and I totally believe that's

713
00:42:20.920 --> 00:42:24.159
how they I believe that's how they found her was

714
00:42:24.199 --> 00:42:29.679
through Facebook, right, And it was in talking to her

715
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:32.960
family members. They had no idea what was going on

716
00:42:33.159 --> 00:42:36.440
because she wasn't talking to them about this new love interest. Right.

717
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:42.320
It wasn't until she started asking for help with basic

718
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:46.639
needs stuff that all of a sudden the family was going, Okay,

719
00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:51.599
this doesn't make sense. You have enough, right, And then

720
00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:54.840
they started looking into things just as you said, right.

721
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:58.920
And it wasn't like they went to her and explained

722
00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:00.679
it to her and she was like, oh, oh okay,

723
00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:03.039
I'm never going to do that again. Had her in

724
00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:09.320
that absolute trust. It took a couple interventions because they

725
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:12.880
the victim is in that absolute trust and it is

726
00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:16.360
so hard to break. I've gotten calls from people that

727
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:19.119
are like, we've had the police out to talk to

728
00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:22.480
whether it was mom, dad, grandma, and grandpa, whoever it was,

729
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:26.760
We've talked to them. We can't get them to see

730
00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:29.480
you know. And the first thing is like, you know,

731
00:43:29.559 --> 00:43:33.960
I'm sorry, it's they're in that absolute trust and you know,

732
00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:39.800
I'll try to give you some ideas to do. I'll

733
00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:42.840
be more than happy to talk to them with you present, right,

734
00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:48.000
because I don't know, maybe somebody totally unbiased, not involved

735
00:43:48.039 --> 00:43:52.199
in any of it. Maybe you know, it'll it'll break

736
00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:54.760
the cycle. Who knows, you know, you just don't know.

737
00:43:54.920 --> 00:43:59.079
But it is so difficult, it is so short.

738
00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:04.480
Yeah, a victim. One of the things we do at

739
00:44:04.519 --> 00:44:09.639
Operation Shamrock is we listen to We have two calls

740
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:11.960
a week where we listen directly to victims about what

741
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:15.800
they've experienced for the purpose of understanding where things went

742
00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:18.559
wrong in the criminal justice system, in the banking system

743
00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:20.440
and social media.

744
00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:22.159
And so, yeah, it is.

745
00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:24.360
It's good for all of us because I think one

746
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:27.679
of the key issues is that victims are not being heard.

747
00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:29.880
They don't feel like anybody cares, they don't feel like

748
00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:33.119
anybody's listening to them, nobody's trying to fix this, and

749
00:44:33.239 --> 00:44:36.440
so I think it's works well for them. For me,

750
00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:40.559
it's an amazing opportunity to get real time, ground floor

751
00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:42.559
information about what's happening in our country.

752
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:46.920
Absolutely everybody's case is different, right, everybody's experience is different.

753
00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:48.400
You're exactly right.

754
00:44:48.440 --> 00:44:51.559
And what's interesting is, you know, we always think we've

755
00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:53.519
heard it all, and then a victim will come on

756
00:44:53.559 --> 00:44:55.960
and will be like, ooh, that's a different twist on it.

757
00:44:56.039 --> 00:44:59.199
Oh didn't know that, didn't You hadn't seen that happen before.

758
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:02.360
And the way the reason I brought it up is

759
00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:05.159
there was a victim who was telling us, well, his parent,

760
00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:08.800
his father was still in it, and he was talking

761
00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:11.559
to us about it, and he was saying, it feels

762
00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:13.800
like an addiction, Like it feels like we can have

763
00:45:13.840 --> 00:45:16.960
a conversation with him and we can tell him and

764
00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:19.760
he'll be like, Okay, you're right, you're right, I'm going

765
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:22.280
to get out. And then and before you know what,

766
00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:25.920
he sent another twenty thousand dollars. And so there's something

767
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:30.039
worth studying at the psychological level of how to break

768
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:34.239
this cycle in a functional way that doesn't destroy families,

769
00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:36.679
because that's a whole other piece of this. It is

770
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:40.320
like an unspoken piece that is ruining our.

771
00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:42.119
Pick.

772
00:45:42.199 --> 00:45:46.719
Butchering is destroying and creating chaos in a million different ways,

773
00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:50.639
and one of the ways is just the destruction of families.

774
00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:51.320
Family.

775
00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:55.480
Yeah, I spoke to another adult son and he was like,

776
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:57.280
I'm yelling at my dad and I'm telling him this

777
00:45:57.320 --> 00:45:57.920
as a scam.

778
00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:01.519
And I was like, oh, that's probably out the right technique.

779
00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:06.920
But there's just a lot of destruction on a on

780
00:46:07.239 --> 00:46:11.719
a million different like how genius? How genius is this

781
00:46:11.800 --> 00:46:14.519
whole thing that we're going to attack the United States

782
00:46:14.559 --> 00:46:18.599
in a way that destroys their confidence and law enforcement

783
00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:23.679
and government, that ruins families that I mean, it's really

784
00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:26.320
super well plagued. I've got to hand it to him.

785
00:46:26.360 --> 00:46:29.880
This is expertly designed and there's no work. They've done

786
00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:30.440
their homework.

787
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:34.519
Yeah, And like you said, that's where those of us

788
00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:37.800
that are in this fight right to try to prevent

789
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:41.960
this and get the education out there. I think. I

790
00:46:41.960 --> 00:46:44.400
think there's a lot more people that need to start

791
00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:47.360
listening to us, as far as the people that make

792
00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:53.400
decisions and make laws and stuff like that, right, It's yeah, they.

793
00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:55.440
Need to realize the gravity of what's happening here, that

794
00:46:55.519 --> 00:46:59.079
this isn't a small issue, and this isn't this isn't

795
00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:03.880
an old cat lady making stupid decisions. These are very

796
00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:09.360
intelligent people who are being misled about an investment opportunity

797
00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:13.119
and they've been provided a context where it makes sense

798
00:47:13.519 --> 00:47:17.360
their income. They're in communication with someone who appears to

799
00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:19.880
have made a lot of money in this. They're already

800
00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:22.639
having fomo because they know other people have made a

801
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:25.800
lot of money in this, and they're presented with an

802
00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:29.199
investment platform that looks genuine.

803
00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:33.400
Right, and the person that's giving them all this information

804
00:47:33.559 --> 00:47:38.039
seems very knowledgeable. Right, it's all making. It's a perfect storm.

805
00:47:38.559 --> 00:47:39.599
It is the perfect storm.

806
00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:41.599
And then you throw all the emotions in it, and

807
00:47:41.639 --> 00:47:45.440
the endorphins and the and you and you put together

808
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:48.360
the feeling of new love, and you put it together

809
00:47:48.400 --> 00:47:51.320
with the feeling of oh, I'm also getting wealthy, Like

810
00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:54.840
you can't compete with those kind of emotions.

811
00:47:55.159 --> 00:47:57.719
Yeah, it's tough, but I was just looking at the clock.

812
00:47:57.760 --> 00:48:01.039
We've got to wrap up or we're going to be

813
00:48:01.079 --> 00:48:03.679
getting little notes here. It's time to stop.

814
00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:09.800
Well, conversation is easy, yeah, yeah, but I would love

815
00:48:09.880 --> 00:48:13.559
to have you back to continue this conversation because this

816
00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:15.360
definitely is not a one and done.

817
00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:18.679
I think people have to hear about these things on

818
00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:22.880
a regular basis in order to make prevention a habit, right.

819
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:25.679
I was just equating it this morning, like when you

820
00:48:25.719 --> 00:48:27.840
first learn how to drive, and you're a new driver

821
00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:30.400
for a number of years, you see a police car

822
00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:33.039
and you automatically want to slam the brakes on, right,

823
00:48:33.119 --> 00:48:35.559
that's not a panic. Well, as you become a more

824
00:48:35.559 --> 00:48:37.639
experienced driver, when all of a sudden you see that

825
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:39.840
police car and you know you're speeding, you kind of

826
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:43.320
just let your foot off the brake right, a little bit, right,

827
00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:47.360
And so I kind of equate that too. You need

828
00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:49.320
to hear it's gotten to the point you need to

829
00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:53.920
hear about scams prevention measures, just so when you are contacted,

830
00:48:55.719 --> 00:48:57.920
scam comes in the back of your mind, right, yep,

831
00:48:58.920 --> 00:49:02.599
about this, you know, yeah, you know so anyways, but

832
00:49:03.039 --> 00:49:05.519
thank you so much, and I did want to let

833
00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:09.679
everybody know that they can find your podcast called Stolen.

834
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:14.039
It's Stolen with Aaron West, Stolen with.

835
00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:18.039
Aaron West, and then your website for Operation Shamrock if

836
00:49:18.039 --> 00:49:20.719
they want to find out more information about the pig

837
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:24.760
butchering and what you guys are doing is Operationshamrock dot org.

838
00:49:25.159 --> 00:49:29.679
That's it, Okay, awesome, and yes, let's definitely have another

839
00:49:29.719 --> 00:49:32.920
conversation because I think we just started to hit the

840
00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:35.719
surface on this and maybe I'll have to talk to

841
00:49:35.800 --> 00:49:37.800
the producer. If we can do three people and we

842
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:40.880
can get doctor Dove in here, would love that. That

843
00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:44.119
would be great. That would be awesome. So thank you

844
00:49:44.199 --> 00:49:45.920
very much, Aaron. I really appreciate it.

845
00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:47.440
Thank you so much for having me.

846
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:51.039
Yep, all right, thank you everybody for joining us today.

847
00:49:51.159 --> 00:49:54.199
I hope you listened in the whole time. This was

848
00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:58.760
full of great information about pig butchering scams and what

849
00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:01.960
they're like and how they work. And Aaron's going to

850
00:50:01.960 --> 00:50:05.280
be back so we can continue this conversation. Don't forget

851
00:50:05.320 --> 00:50:07.840
go to Roseadvocacy dot org. You can find a lot

852
00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:11.119
of resources. There's also Operation Shamrock dot org to find

853
00:50:11.159 --> 00:50:14.559
a lot of resources on the pig butchering and hit

854
00:50:14.599 --> 00:50:18.280
subscribe so you don't ever miss an episode of Let's

855
00:50:18.280 --> 00:50:20.880
Talk About Scams until next week.

856
00:50:21.320 --> 00:50:24.320
Well that's all the knowledge for this episode. Juni in

857
00:50:24.519 --> 00:50:28.599
every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on KFOURHD Radio

858
00:50:28.760 --> 00:50:33.480
at KFOURHD dot com as Joyce explores a variety of knowledge.

859
00:50:33.519 --> 00:50:37.079
So you have the power to make scam protection your

860
00:50:37.239 --> 00:50:40.880
healthy habit and until then, feel free to reach out

861
00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:43.480
to Joyce and Let's talk about scams