Aug. 12, 2025

Martin Hellmer - retired FBI Special Agent

Martin Hellmer - retired FBI Special Agent
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What do you do if you have been the victim of an internet related scam? Who should you call? Can you get your money back? We will be talking with retired FBI agent Martin Hellmer about his experiences investigating scams and he will share advice on what to do if it happens to you or someone you love.

Let’s Talk About Scams is broadcast live Tuesdays at 8AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Let’s Talk About Scams TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

Let’s Talk About Scams Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Disclaimer: The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional / legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references; however, R.O.S.E. Resources / Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/let-s-talk-about-scams--6483699/support.

WEBVTT

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This program is designed to provide general information with regards

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to the subject matters covered. This information is given with

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the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station

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are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling,

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professional service, or any advice.

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You should seek the services.

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Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.

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The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational

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purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional

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legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted

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sources and references. However, Rose Resources outreach to safeguard the

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elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to

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a scam. Let's talk about scams. It's the must listen

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show for anyone who wants to protect themselves and their

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loved ones from scams. Every Tuesday at am Pacific time

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on K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose,

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and her guests will provide valuable insights and practical tips

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on how to recognize and protect yourself from scams. And

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now here is your host, Joyce Petrowski.

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Good morning everybody, and welcome to Let's talk about scams.

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My name is Brian Watson. I'm a community outreach specialist

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for Rose Resources Outreach to safeguard the elderly, and I'm

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filling in for Joyce. It's been about four or five

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weeks now, and the plan is to have Joyce back

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next week. So those of you have been patiently waiting

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for Joyce's return, the plan is for her to be

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back next week. I've really enjoyed filling in for Joyce

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and I appreciate her giving me the opportunity to host

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this radio show. So today we have a guest. Today's

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guest is Mark Helmer. He is a retired FBI agent

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and he's the newest member of the Rose Advisory Committee. Martin,

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are you there? We'll just have to wait a second.

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Here will Martin's pops up on the screen, Give it

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a second here. Technology is great, but every now and

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then we run into little little snot foos. We had

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Martin at the top of the show.

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Is here, I am hi, I'm here now?

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All right, awesome, we're seeing you can hear me.

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You're welcome.

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Thanks for joining today. All right, let's start out. How

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long did you work for the FBI.

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Martin.

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Ye yep, it's freezing up. We're gonna have to hold

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on a second hair. Martin's feed has frozen.

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There you are. I'm back. I've I might need to

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relocate to make this work better. Let me okay, let me,

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let me see if I can find a better spot.

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All right, We'll just hold on a second hair. Martin

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will be right back. I had the pleasure of meeting

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with Martin about a month ago up in Phoenix.

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And its very interesting.

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Our career paths crossed a lot of the same types

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of cases, and we know a lot of the same people,

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but we'd actually never met each other because I was

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based with the I R S and Tucson and Martin

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was based with the FBI up in Phoenix, and so

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we know a lot of people in commons. So it

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was fun going out to lunch and just sharing experiences.

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All right, how does that sound?

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I can hear you. Good, now, I can hear well.

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Let's start from the top, Martin. How long did you

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work for the FBI.

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I was in the FBI for twenty three years. I

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entered the FBI in November twenty twenty two and just

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retired this last May.

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And then you're also a Certified Public accountant. Is that correct?

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Yeah, that's right. I worked as a CPA, worked in

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practiced as a CPA for five years before joining the FBI,

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and I've maintained my license through the years.

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And you were a special agent with the FBI, is

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that correct?

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That is correct, yes.

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And as a special agent, what types of cases did

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you investigate?

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Well? I worked a broad range of cases during during

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the course of my twenty fi three years in the FBI.

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I started out, because I did enter the FBI right

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after nine to eleven, I started out working terrorism cases.

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Every new agent seemed to be assigned to work terrorism matters,

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and that's what I did, especially in the Washington, d C.

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Field Office where I was first assigned. But then I

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transferred to Phoenix. After doing a stint at FBI headquarters,

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I transferred to Phoenix in twenty eleven and I worked

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cyber crimes for about eight years. I headed up the

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Arizona Cybercrime Task Force out of the FBI's Phoenix Field Office,

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which is a great experience. And then I transferred over

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to work why collar crime beginning in about twenty nineteen,

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and during that period was during that period that I

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mostly became familiar with a lot of the online scams

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that I think we're going to talk about today. We

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touched on a few of them. We investigated several of

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those types of online scams when I was doing cybercrimes,

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really a majority of them that I encountered and then

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I investigated as a special agent. We're done in the

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last seven or so years of my career working white

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collar crime.

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Well, and that's why it's great that we have you

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on the advisory committee for ROSE. Get connected with Rose.

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How did that work out?

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Well? I provided a presentation to the FBI Citizens Academy

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about five or so years back. I spoke to the group. Now,

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the FBI Citizens Academy is a collection of people who

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go through in every FBI field office, all the fbis

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field offices, we host a citizens Academy and it's usually

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a group of thirty to fifty people who just want

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to get to know more about the FBI. So what

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we do is we host that group for a series

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of I think about eight classes over a span of

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eight weeks, and we just provide them education about the

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different violations, different programs in the FBI works. What we do,

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we take them up to the shooting range one day.

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So anyway, five years ago or so, I was asked

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to provide a presentation to the Citizens Academy class going

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through at the time on white collar crime, and I

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did so, and afterwards, another advisory board member approached me

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and Bill celler day and he asked if I'd be

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willing to talk to Joyce about what I was doing

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and perhaps partner with Rose to educate the elderly community.

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And then I've been associated with Rose ever since.

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Oh, that's awesome. So I've got to know Bill as well.

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He's spoken in my class at U of A. I

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know Bill and Joyce have known each other for a

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long time. I'd like to say that Joyce's superpower is

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finding people with amazing talent and having them join our team,

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because we have some superstars that volunteer with Rose. All Right,

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what is the Internet Crime Complaint Center? People talk about it,

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but I'd love to hear what it is from an

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FBI former FBI agent's point of view.

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That Crime Complaint Center is actually physically located in West Virginia.

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But there's a bunch of people who work there whose

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sole job is to take reports of crime, and there

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are two ways to report crime with you.

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So a lot of times when I was a special

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agent with the I R S and when I've been

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working for ROSE for the last two years, we tell

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people anybody that's lost money on the Internet to file

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a report with the i C three dot g o V.

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So it's the Internet Crime Complaint Center IC three dot

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g o V. And my understanding of it, it is

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a clearing house for anything Internet related crime. And because

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we tell people file a report at IC three dot

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gov and at Federal Trade Commission dot gov, and then

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I know that this IC the IC three provides the

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information for the FBI's Elder Fraud Report and it ROSE.

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We are big fans of the FBI's Elder Fraud Report

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because it it verifies what our mission is and it rose.

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Our mission is to prevent older adults from getting scammed.

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So every year when I do presentations, I always refer

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to the FBI's Elder Fraud Report, which is taken by

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IC three dot up. Martin, you froze up there? Can

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you hear me now?

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I can hear you now? Yes, apology?

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You were talking about the Internet Crime Complaint Center it's

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based in West Virginia. It's like a clearinghouse for everything

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Internet related crime.

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We want people to report.

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How do you how do you report if you've been

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victimized by an Internet related crime?

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How do you do that? How do you report it?

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Well? Okay, so there's to report to the FBI. There

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are three ways to the Internet Crime Complaint Center, which

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is either online at IC three dot gov. That's the

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number three IC three dot gov, or by calling one

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eight hundred call FBI. Both of those means we'll get

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we'll connect you to the Internet Crime Complaint Center to

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report a crime. The third option is to just either

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call or stop by the local FBI field office and

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report crime there and ask to see the duty agent.

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So what are the most common scams they get reported

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to IC three.

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So so every year, the Internet Crime Complaint Center releases

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an annual report which highlights details the top crimes reported

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every year. Unfortunately, since the Internet Crime Complaint Center has

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been releasing the report, and that's ben since two thousand,

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crime has only been reported crimes anyway, I have only

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been on the uptick. But this year, so the twenty

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twenty four report was released in May. The number one

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reported crime online crime to the Internet Crime Complaint Center

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was investment fraud, and that's in large part due to

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a really trending prevalent scam right now called pig butcher

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Second most reported was something called we refer to as

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business email compromise. The third was romance or confidence scams,

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tech support fraud, and government impersonation scams.

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Absolutely, so you mentioned pig butchering, and we've covered that

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a lot here at ROSE. I actually learned about pig

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butchering about three years ago or two and a half

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years ago from the Rose website when I was still

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a federal agent, and I said, what in the world

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is that? And Joyce had interviewed a psychologist who talked

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about pig butchering, and I'm like, what are these people

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talking about? And as soon as I watched the video,

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it all made sense to me, and I've met victims

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of it. Please explain what pig butchering is to our

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listeners and viewers out there.

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Sure. First, I think it's important to explain that the

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people who the criminals who do the pig butcher and

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scam are organized. They work in many cases in big

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office buildings, usually located overseas, many of them in Southeast Asia.

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But they're organized and they know exactly what they're doing.

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It's a very deliberate attack that they perpetrate on people.

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And usually the way it begins is through a random

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text message or contact on some social media site by

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from someone who you don't know, and they pretend to

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be trying to reach out to someone else, very innocently,

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so and you tell them, in fact that I had

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one contacting me this weekend, and I knew exactly what

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it was. High. It said, High, Linda, this is this

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is Raina. I'm coming to the Northern Virginia. I have

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a Northern Virginia number for my time when I was

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living in the DC area. I'm coming to Northern Virginia.

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Will you be around? And if I actually played along

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and I responded I said, no, I don't live there anymore.

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But what can I help you with? And oh, I'm sorry,

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I thought this was Linda. That's the way it starts.

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And then they keep they maintain a relationship. And that's

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what Raina was trying to do with me. She was

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trying to maintain an email relationship or a text message

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relationship with me.

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All Right, we're frozen up again. Oh no, I know

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where he's going with this, because these these professionals out there. Yeah, yeah, Martin,

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you need to be in the same room as as

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the router, wherever that is. I'll I'm gonna let him

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know that via text here because he's getting we're losing

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the internet connection.

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You're back, I'm back, Paul.

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So our engineer is saying, you need to be in

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the same room as the router. If possible, that would

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that would be beneficial so we don't lose contact. So

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I'm just gonna have to I'm gonna have to tell

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Martin's story. So, like he's saying, a lot of these

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pig butchering contacts are random scams where someone gets a

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text message and they're nice and they respond like, no,

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you've got the wrong number. Oh I thought you were Linda.

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Oh okam, sorry how do And they'll just if someone's nice,

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they'll get engaged in a text message chain with with

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with someone. But it's kind of crazy. Martin's a retired

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FBI special agent and he was being targeted for pig

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butchering over the weekend. Like he said, he was playing

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along a little bit just to see what they would do.

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But they're going to reach out to every single one

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of us. If you haven't gotten one of these random

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text messages where someone just is trying to start a

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conversation with you via text, it's.

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You're going to get it.

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And then what eventually they do is they will bring

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up the idea the concept of investing in cryptocurrency. They

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all make a mention that, oh, I've made a ton

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of money via bitcoin. It's done very well for me.

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I can retire now, I travel the world. And you know,

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we all.

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Want to.

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We all want to make money, we all want to

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be successful, and there's a little bit of greed in

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every one of us. And that's why this pig butchering

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scam works. Its people fall for it. All right, Martin,

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are you close to the router now?

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Yes, I'm closer now, Okay, going all the way into

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my daughter's room. I think I'm good now.

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Okay, So now we've got to see three rooms here

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of your house. So far you have a beautiful place.

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So I was just explaining you were talking about pig butchering.

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You start a little innocuous or innocent conversation online with

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someone and eventually they they suggest the idea of investing

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in cryptocurrency is that how it works.

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That's that is the way it works. They always introduce

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after they've established a relationship and confidence of the person

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who they're targeting, they will ask if that person might

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be interested in investing in some sort of a crypto investment,

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and they'll always let them know that hey, I've already

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made a bunch of money doing this, and they'll usually

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present totally fake statements which show that they've made a

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bunch of profits, but it's all fake. And then unfortunately,

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many victims trust what this weather person is telling them,

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and they it's a devastating crime to many people who

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have sent their life savings overseas to these people, trusting

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that their investments are going toward, you know, crypto investment

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and making money. But it all ends the same. They

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are unable to pull out any of the supposed profits,

279
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and then eventually the criminal on the other side just

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stops communicating with the person who they victimized.

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Is there any way of getting that money back?

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There is, but it's very difficult. Because most of these

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scams originate overseas. It's hard for US authorities to repatriate

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the money. To find the money first of all, and

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then get it back to the United States. The FBI

286
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and no US either federal law enforcement agency or local

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law enforcement agency, has jurisdiction to operate outside of the

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US borders. So we must rely on relationships and treaties

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with foreign governments where these crimes have occurred for law enforcement,

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and in many cases the cooperation just isn't there. If

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the cooperation is there, it's still difficult because these guys

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committing the criminals committing these crimes are good. They take

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steps to hide themselves, to anonymize themselves online, to make

294
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it difficult for law enforcement to find them. So there

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are all sorts of hurdles to finding the stolen money

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and getting it back to the United States. Now, we

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have had some success, the US government has had some

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success through the years in successfully getting money back to victims,

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but those unfortunately, those cases are rare because of the

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difficulties I just described.

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Well, And that's why I mentioned at the beginning of

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the show. Our mission at Rose is to prevent people

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from losing money in the first place. And you know,

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it's a tough challenge for us, but we're up for

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the challenge, and that's what we're trying to do. I mean,

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just the fact that we're talking about this today will

307
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prevent someone from falling for that text message that comes

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in and they can identify it. So we know it's

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difficult to get the money back. But why is it

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still important to report losses?

311
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Well, because I'll talk specifically about reporting losses to the FBI.

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The FBI has a team of analysts who can connect

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the dots, so who can put pieces of the puzzle together,

314
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just with different reports of crime from different people. So

315
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while let's say someone in the Phoenix area might have

316
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only lost a small amount of money, say it's I

317
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don't want to say it's one hundred dollars. If someone

318
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lost to a pig Buttons game, I would still encourage

319
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someone to report that to the FBI because there might

320
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be an email address, there might be some phone number,

321
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some piece of information included in that report that can

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help an FBI agent working the overall gang of which

323
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that person, that criminal might be a part, solve the crime,

324
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find where they are. Maybe that person who stole one

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hundred dollars from the victim here in Phoenix, maybe he

326
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or she failed to anonymize himself when he went online

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one day, and we can find that IP address and

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trace it back to who did this thing. So we

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really encourage folks to report the crime.

330
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And then I get this question all the time. Okay,

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I report to the federal you know, the federal government.

332
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Should I also file a police report in the city

333
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or town that I live in.

334
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That's a really good question, and I would recommend that, yes,

335
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folks report being victimized to both the local law enforcement

336
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agency and to the FBI and the because those two

337
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agencies will talk with one another, they'll figure and some

338
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there are sometimes when both agencies will we'll begin investigating

339
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a case, but there's usually some deconfliction along the way

340
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and one will take the lead. But in many cases,

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the FBI, because of limited resources at both the field

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office level, the investigator level, and at the US Attorney's

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office level, the ability to prosecute the crimes there are

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limited resources. Local law enforcement agencies, although they also have

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limited resources, might take smaller cases. So I'd really encourage

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folks to report to both agencies.

347
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Is there any reason to report an unsuccessful scam attempt

348
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where someone thinks they were the attempted victim of pig butchering,

349
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or if someone got a phishing email or a smishing text,

350
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or some sort of you know, phone called grandparents scam,

351
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jury scam. Is there any reason for people to report that?

352
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Or should people only report if they've actually physically lost money?

353
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No, I would encourage folks to report even small things. Now,

354
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smishing emails or smishing attempts. Phishing emails are very prevalent.

355
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They're widespread, So I think the FBI local law enforcement

356
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agencies would be deluged with a barrage of reports if

357
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everyone reported every attempt that was made against them. So

358
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with discretion, I would encourage folks. Maybe they respond to

359
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a text, during an email, maybe they begin in interaction,

360
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but they're not necessarily victimized. Those sorts of things. I

361
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would encourage folks to report because, again, it enables analysts

362
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:01.559
and investigators to connect dots.

363
00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:06.519
So we mentioned that pig butchering a lot of times

364
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starts with like these random text messages that are meant

365
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just to engage someone in a texting conversation. A lot

366
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of pig butchering also starts via romance scams. You know,

367
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where someone's online and someone reaches out to them on Facebook,

368
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Messenger or Words with Friends or a dating site, and

369
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they start this online relationship. You had when we went

370
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out for lunch. You had talked about meeting a victim

371
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of a romance scam and the person didn't think they

372
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were being victimized. Share what you learned interacting with this victim,

373
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like the psychology behind it. You know how deep they

374
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were into this scheme where they this person didn't believe you,

375
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and you were an FBI agent with a badge, you know,

376
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in credentials.

377
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:06.519
Right. So, both pig butchering and romance scams are a

378
00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:09.519
type of fraud that we refer to as confidence frauds

379
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confident scams because the person on the other side who's

380
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doing the victimizing establishes the confidence of the victim so

381
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much so that I encountered a few times conversations or

382
00:25:27.160 --> 00:25:31.400
countered victims of these types of crimes who, even though

383
00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:34.519
I was there presented my FBI credentials and I was

384
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:37.160
telling them that they were being scammed, they would not

385
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:41.640
believe me. They were so entrenched in the story, they

386
00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:45.039
so believed the story and trusted that the other person

387
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:47.599
was telling them the truth that they didn't believe me,

388
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:51.079
standing right there in their living room telling them that

389
00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:57.640
they had been scammed. And the instance that you reference

390
00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:02.599
that we discussed over lunch, this woman had lost over

391
00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:05.559
five hundred thousand dollars. She'd said, over five hundred thousand

392
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:08.279
dollars to this person who she had fallen in love

393
00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:11.400
with online. She'd never met him in person, but he

394
00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:15.759
told her, as it goes with all romance scams, he

395
00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:19.359
told her a fantastical story that he had been in

396
00:26:19.400 --> 00:26:21.279
the He was an American, but he'd been in the

397
00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:26.079
French Foreign Legion and he was stuck overseas in Africa,

398
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:29.440
and he needed money. First. The first thing he needed

399
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:31.799
money for was to pay a hospital bill, otherwise they

400
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:34.079
weren't going to discharge him from the hospital. And then

401
00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:36.799
he needed taxes to pay the government so that he

402
00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:38.759
could get out of the country. Then he needed to

403
00:26:38.759 --> 00:26:40.960
pay a fee to get his passport in order, and

404
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:43.039
then he needed money for the plane ticket, and then

405
00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:46.279
it goes on and on and on, and she absolutely

406
00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:51.559
believed what he was telling her as far fetched as

407
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:55.960
it got along the way, so much so that she said,

408
00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:59.400
I have a call scheduled with him this afternoon. He

409
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:03.240
is supposed to be making his plane flight to come

410
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:05.160
and see me. Would you like to talk to him?

411
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:08.480
I said, no, you need to stop communicating with this person.

412
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:13.119
This is a waste, This is this is a scam

413
00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:16.519
you were He is only taking advantage of you for

414
00:27:16.599 --> 00:27:18.839
your money. But she would not believe me. Even when

415
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:21.359
I left that day, she did not believe what I

416
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:21.880
told her.

417
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:26.480
Could you go and reach out to a family member

418
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:29.960
or friend of hers to try to stop her? Or

419
00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:33.119
was that not possible in that case?

420
00:27:34.839 --> 00:27:38.400
Yes? We, in fact we did after the fact. Now

421
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:40.599
it took us a little bit to track down a

422
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:43.720
daughter who she had in the area. We did track

423
00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:45.519
down her daughter and let her know what was happening.

424
00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:49.920
Now I don't know what happened from there. But unfortunately,

425
00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:55.559
in many of these cases, especially in romance scams, after

426
00:27:55.759 --> 00:28:01.359
victims have been bled dry of their money, the criminals

427
00:28:01.720 --> 00:28:06.759
start using their victims to unwittingly launder money for them.

428
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:11.079
So when they sense that a victim has norm more

429
00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:14.000
money to send, they will ask them to be a

430
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:18.200
pass through through their bank accounts, usually of money from

431
00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:24.400
other romance scam victims to them. So and unfortunately these

432
00:28:24.440 --> 00:28:28.920
people unwittingly start engaging in money laundering, a crime when

433
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:31.240
these things happen, and that's what the stage at which

434
00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:33.079
this woman was when I spoke to her, and that's

435
00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:35.680
what I passed along to her daughter. I let her know, listen,

436
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:41.799
your mother's now unwittingly engaging in a crime. We should

437
00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:43.839
do something about this. Well.

438
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:46.160
And then that's what's referred to as a money mule.

439
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:50.880
Yes, that's right. We refer to those times focus money mules.

440
00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:55.039
And a lot of times these money mules are committing crimes,

441
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:01.440
but they're also victims at the same time, and so

442
00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:04.680
I know a lot of times federal government doesn't want

443
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:09.039
to prosecute them because they're not really getting much out

444
00:29:09.079 --> 00:29:10.880
of it. They might get a little cut or a

445
00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:15.559
small kickback or something, but they're being dominated and controlled

446
00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:19.279
by the criminal. I know, when we were in southern Arizona,

447
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:23.039
our agencies would go out and talk to these money

448
00:29:23.079 --> 00:29:25.480
mules and say, cut it out, you're being the victim,

449
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:30.400
and you know a lot of times they would continue that, no,

450
00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:33.519
this is my boyfriend. I'm just helping them out. You know,

451
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.279
we're going to get married someday. And they have complete control.

452
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:42.440
Absolutely. Yeah, that that was my experience a lot of

453
00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:44.799
times when we would when we would run out and

454
00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:48.759
have these conversations with money mules, is that they they

455
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:53.839
they found it unbelievable that we were that they had

456
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:56.279
been engaged in crime, that they were even being victimized.

457
00:29:57.519 --> 00:30:02.160
And you're right that our prosecutor are very very hesitant

458
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:06.319
to charge these people because they are victims and they've

459
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:10.680
really gotten nothing out of it. I'm aware of a

460
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:15.119
handful of instances in which money mules were prosecuted because

461
00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:17.240
they had been warned multiple times.

462
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:25.000
Now, going back to the pig butchering, where someone entices

463
00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:28.599
someone to invest in cryptocurrency and they end up losing

464
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:33.920
all this money, how is the money actually transferred from

465
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:36.480
the victim to the scammer?

466
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:38.039
How is that typically done?

467
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:43.359
Typically in the pig butchering scam, it's done using cryptocurrency.

468
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:46.400
So the victim will be told to go to a

469
00:30:46.519 --> 00:30:52.559
legitimate cryptocurrency exchange, convert their cash to crypto, and then

470
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:58.279
from that exchange, the victim sends their crypto to a

471
00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:04.400
wallet controlled by the criminal. In many cases, eventually the

472
00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:09.440
criminal convinces the victim to just let the criminal take

473
00:31:09.480 --> 00:31:12.359
over their crypto account and they can just transfer the

474
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:14.839
money on their own. So but yeah, that's typically how

475
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:18.880
it's gone. Are you aware of other other ways that

476
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:19.960
that it typically happens?

477
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:25.119
And with uh, you know, all the crypto all the

478
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:29.880
pig butchering I've seen has involved people pulling cash out

479
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:33.920
of their bank accounts. They're given a QR code and

480
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:38.880
they're told specifically where to go. They go to a

481
00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:42.680
cryptocurrency at M they scan the QR code and they

482
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:46.440
just start feeding in the cash. They think it's their

483
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:50.480
money because like you said, they they're they're they're provided

484
00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:55.000
fake returns. Sometimes it's a portal. It's actually it looks

485
00:31:55.039 --> 00:32:00.000
really fancy, like you have might have with your financial company,

486
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:03.759
your financial advisor provides you. You think you're making money,

487
00:32:03.799 --> 00:32:06.200
and then I always hear part of the scam is

488
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:08.400
they'll refund the money or part of the money to

489
00:32:08.440 --> 00:32:11.359
show that it's liquid. And that's part of the confidence

490
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:15.599
game that you talk about confident schemes. And then they

491
00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:17.880
go in for the kill. And that's why it's called

492
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:22.119
pig butchering because it's it's a it's a financial slaughter.

493
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:24.720
They fatten up the pig. The pig is the victim

494
00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:28.039
and then they go in for the kill, and you know,

495
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:31.680
it's it's heartbreaking because like the romance scams that we

496
00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:35.000
saw five or ten years ago, you could only lose

497
00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:38.960
so much money. Now with these very sophisticated pig butchering

498
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:44.240
schemes operated by criminal gangs and enterprises, they really they

499
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:48.319
can take a million dollars from someone and it's it's heartbreaking.

500
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:52.000
You know, what is it like as an FBI agent

501
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:53.799
interviewing the victim of a scam?

502
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:54.599
What is that?

503
00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:57.400
How is that when dealing with that?

504
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:03.079
It's in most cases, when we're talking about these sorts

505
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:08.640
of scams, confidence scams in particular, it's heartbreaking because these

506
00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:13.680
people have been so financially devastated in many cases, yet

507
00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:18.680
they don't understand and don't want to believe. Let me

508
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:22.640
put that differently, not don't want to believe, are unable

509
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:26.519
to believe that they have been victimized because they still

510
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:29.680
believe that the money is going to be coming back

511
00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:33.279
to them that they have not been victimized. So it's

512
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:34.559
it's it's heartbreaking.

513
00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:38.480
Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Martin. Go ahead.

514
00:33:38.960 --> 00:33:44.359
Now, what I was going to say was the ability

515
00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:49.279
for these criminal gangs to commit. These online scams that

516
00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:56.400
we're talking about is really been a well, well devastating

517
00:33:56.480 --> 00:34:01.400
to a heck of a lot more people than financial scams,

518
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:04.680
which are all these are at their core used to be.

519
00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:08.480
Because if you think about like the Bernie made Off

520
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:13.360
Ponzi scheme, he was convincing investors to put their money

521
00:34:13.880 --> 00:34:17.039
into his hedge fund, and he was doing exactly what

522
00:34:17.079 --> 00:34:20.440
these pig butcher and scamsters do. He was showing people

523
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:23.840
fake statements which showed that they were making all kinds

524
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:25.480
of money, and every once in a while he'd let

525
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:27.239
them have a little piece. And that's exactly what the

526
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:31.760
pig butcher and scammers do. But in the case of

527
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:37.039
the pig butcher in folks, they're not. Their investor pool

528
00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:41.719
isn't limited to just an elite group of people who

529
00:34:41.800 --> 00:34:45.920
can hear about it through word of mouth. Their potential

530
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:49.280
group of investors is worldwide. It's whomever they can reach

531
00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:52.239
on the internet, which is everyone. It's I think the

532
00:34:52.599 --> 00:34:55.400
latest status was there's five billion people in the world

533
00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:59.719
who are online, and how many of those five billion

534
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:04.199
pieceeople are aware that these scammers are out there and

535
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:07.000
don't know any better? Just don't know that there are

536
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:10.840
criminals out there looking to constantly looking to victimize people.

537
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:13.199
I think we need to. Folks need to change their

538
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:16.840
mindset about the Internet. When they are online, it's a

539
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:18.880
bad neighborhood and they need to think of it as such,

540
00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:21.159
just like if they were walking in a bad neighborhood,

541
00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:25.000
you know, in any downtown in the United States or

542
00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:29.159
wherever they might be. Be cautious, be aware of where

543
00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:32.400
you're going, Be aware that there are people looking to

544
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:33.519
take advantage of you.

545
00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:38.800
Wow, I love that analogy that may appear in a

546
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:43.679
future presentation of mine. I like that the bad neighborhood analogy.

547
00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:48.519
So one of the reasons, the main reason why Joyce

548
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:52.320
started Rose was she had a loved one get roped

549
00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:58.400
into a romance scam and she would not believe that

550
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:01.960
she was being scammed, just like the stories you told here.

551
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:06.960
You know, what is your recommendation if you have a

552
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:12.119
family member or friend who you suspect might be being

553
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:18.000
caught up in one of these confident schemes romance scam,

554
00:36:18.159 --> 00:36:21.760
pig butchering, or some sort of other investment scheme, what

555
00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:22.599
do you recommend?

556
00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:30.639
Well, yeah, I recommend that, and I fall into this

557
00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:38.199
category that we need to be in contact with our

558
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:44.239
loved ones who are who are elderly, right because most

559
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:51.159
of these scams, the stats show that a majority of

560
00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:53.960
the victims of these scams are in the age group

561
00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:57.679
that is over sixty, so that would include my parents.

562
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:01.719
So I think folks who are aware of these scams.

563
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:07.280
Hopefully the people who were reaching via this show today

564
00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:11.800
are in closer contact with their loved ones who fall

565
00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:14.599
into that age category and they make them aware that

566
00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:17.840
they're aware of their online activity, that they educate them

567
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:21.159
about their online activity. I try to do my best

568
00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:23.679
with my parents and let them know what's happening online.

569
00:37:23.719 --> 00:37:25.199
They grew up. They just grew up in an era

570
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:27.760
where the Internet didn't exist when they were coming up.

571
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:31.800
It's brand new. They're very trusting of the emails and

572
00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:35.679
the text messages they receive. But if folks do become

573
00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:39.320
aware that their loved ones are being victimized, they need

574
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:41.599
to have heart to heart conversations and let them know

575
00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:45.880
exactly what's happening. In one case, about six months ago,

576
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:49.320
this is right before I left the FBI to retire,

577
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:54.280
a loved one actually contacted us and let us know

578
00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:59.039
that a close friend of theirs had been was being

579
00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:05.239
victimized by a romance scam, but that they would not

580
00:38:05.480 --> 00:38:09.960
believe their friend. So we actually another eight special agent

581
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:12.760
and I went out and visited the victim and let

582
00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:15.960
him know, Hey, we learned that you might have been

583
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:18.039
the victim of a scam. You need to know that

584
00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:20.639
this is in fact a scam. Now. I don't know

585
00:38:20.679 --> 00:38:23.519
what happened when we left the house, but we did

586
00:38:23.559 --> 00:38:27.599
our best to let him know. So the FBI has

587
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:31.960
and will take steps to let people know that they're

588
00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:37.119
being victimized if they won't believe it otherwise from loved ones.

589
00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:44.840
That's the whole idea. The FBI and law enforcement want

590
00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:47.480
to prevent these crimes from happening before they even occur

591
00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:51.280
because of the tremendous challenges that come along with investigating them,

592
00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:55.400
in bringing the bad guys to justice and getting money

593
00:38:55.400 --> 00:38:57.039
back to the victims.

594
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:04.159
Does the FBI have any statistics on what percentage of

595
00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:09.159
these lost funds are recovered and what percentage of scammers

596
00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:12.119
get prosecuted? Is that available anywhere online?

597
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:18.079
That? I don't know, Brian. What I do know is

598
00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:22.320
that if so, the one stat that I can refer

599
00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:26.079
to that's that's a positive is that the FBI has

600
00:39:26.119 --> 00:39:29.840
something called the Financial Fraud Kill Chain. So if someone

601
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:34.159
realizes that they've been scammed and can report it to

602
00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:38.119
the FBI within the first forty eight to seventy two hours,

603
00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:44.400
whether the money has been wired domestically or overseas. We've

604
00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:47.679
had the FBI had something like a sixty percent success

605
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:50.119
rate in getting in freezing the money and getting it

606
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:53.880
back to its victims if they notified the FBI within

607
00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:56.119
that first forty eight to seventy two hours.

608
00:39:57.039 --> 00:40:00.360
So the key is to be very prompt, Martin.

609
00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:00.960
I missed that.

610
00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:04.679
What was the name of that program.

611
00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:06.239
The Financial Fraud kill.

612
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:11.119
Chain, Financial fraud kill Chains, so I learned today.

613
00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:14.280
So it's it's there's a pretty good description of it

614
00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:19.920
in the latest IC three annual report. There's a blurb.

615
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:24.280
It's a relatively short and easy blurb to read. But

616
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:30.000
what it is is it's just a confederation of financial

617
00:40:30.039 --> 00:40:35.079
institutions Finns and the FBI and some other federal partners

618
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:39.119
such that the right people are contacted, the right institutions

619
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:42.320
are contacted when the FBI is notified to implement the

620
00:40:42.639 --> 00:40:43.760
financial fraud kill.

621
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:47.239
Chain, right all right, I want to give you a chance.

622
00:40:47.639 --> 00:40:51.760
Any final thoughts, anything you want to talk about that

623
00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:59.639
I didn't ask you about anything, scams, scam prevention stories,

624
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:01.199
what we want to share right now.

625
00:41:03.159 --> 00:41:06.199
I think all I'd like to do is justly reiterate

626
00:41:06.280 --> 00:41:09.559
the point I was making before, which is that people

627
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:15.159
need to be very cautious, aware and alert when they're online,

628
00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:23.239
that these that there are criminals lurking online, organized criminal

629
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:28.559
gangs working in office buildings with structures, They have CEOs coos,

630
00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:32.119
they have people who know how to speak English to

631
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:36.320
draft the phishing emails, the smission texts. These people are

632
00:41:36.360 --> 00:41:40.480
out there and please be aware of it. Artificial intelligence,

633
00:41:41.559 --> 00:41:43.760
we hear a lot about it nowadays. But what I'd

634
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:47.280
like to highlight about artificial intelligence is it has really

635
00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:57.679
democratized criminals ability to victimize people. In that number one

636
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:02.679
phishing email used to be in, you know, five, ten

637
00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:06.679
years ago, used to be pretty easy to recognize because

638
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:10.960
the people who wrote them were obviously not not were

639
00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:14.760
non native English speakers, So you could pick out programmar

640
00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:19.719
poor punctuation, misspellings, that sort of thing. Anymore, With AI,

641
00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:24.400
that doesn't happen. AI could draft these fishent emails for people.

642
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:29.159
AI also has given people who don't necessarily know how

643
00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:33.760
to code the ability to write code in malware to

644
00:42:33.880 --> 00:42:37.800
infect people's computers. So it's really been a game changer

645
00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:41.280
for criminals. So it's all the more reason why people

646
00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:44.239
need to be aware that when they're online, they need

647
00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:51.000
to be very alert and cautious of the emails the

648
00:42:51.079 --> 00:42:54.679
context they receive. The good news with all of this

649
00:42:55.360 --> 00:43:01.239
is that usually a majority of online crimes, for a

650
00:43:01.239 --> 00:43:05.000
majority of online crimes, the victims must do something proactive.

651
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:08.199
They've got to click on a link in an email

652
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:10.800
or a text message. They've got to actually go down

653
00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:13.039
to the bank and send They must do something, They

654
00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:18.400
must do something proactive. This stuff doesn't usually just happen

655
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:22.599
to people. That does happen in some cases. Put a

656
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:29.159
majority of online crimes, they are preventable by us who

657
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:33.119
are online just taking a pause thinking about what's happening.

658
00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:38.239
Awesome, great advice, Martin. Before we go, I just want

659
00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:42.599
to remind everybody to go to our website, Roseadvocacy dot org.

660
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:46.239
Please sign up for our mailing list. You'll get an

661
00:43:46.239 --> 00:43:49.719
email once a month, and then we also have tips

662
00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:53.360
that come out on Tuesday this is free. I hope

663
00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:53.880
you love it.

664
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:54.559
Sign up.

665
00:43:54.599 --> 00:43:57.239
All we need is your first and last name and

666
00:43:57.320 --> 00:44:00.760
your email address. If you'll like, get shared it with

667
00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:02.960
your family and friends. If you don't like it, you

668
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:06.840
can unsubscribe. We won't be offended. Please follow us on Facebook,

669
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:11.119
follow us on LinkedIn. Watch this podcast. Like I said

670
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:14.159
next week wrote, I mean, Joyce should be back, and

671
00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:16.840
I'm pretty sure she's gonna want to have Martin on

672
00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:20.199
again in the future because we only touch, you know,

673
00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:22.719
the surface of all the different scams out there, and

674
00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:25.559
it's great to have the perspective of someone who is

675
00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:29.719
very recently in federal law enforcement investigating these types of

676
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:36.599
crimes and think about sponsoring an event. We go out

677
00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:39.599
and do face to face presentations and we charge a

678
00:44:39.639 --> 00:44:43.639
nominal non nominal fee, but we think we provide a

679
00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:46.760
great service. We have some great handouts. It could be

680
00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:48.880
me out there, it could be Joyce, it could be

681
00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:52.760
Bill Page, it could be Martin. Somebody from the Amazing

682
00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:55.000
Rose team will be out there to share all this,

683
00:44:55.679 --> 00:44:59.320
all this good advice that we have. So thank you

684
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:02.719
for watching to today. Martin. I appreciate your time. Thank

685
00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:05.559
you very much, and I hope to see you soon

686
00:45:05.719 --> 00:45:09.079
next time. I'm up in Phoenix. Everybody out there today,

687
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:12.559
thank you for watching. Let's talk about scams. We'll see

688
00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:13.400
you next Tuesday.

689
00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:18.199
Well that's all the knowledge for this episode. June in

690
00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:22.480
every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on KFOURHD Radio

691
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:27.320
at KFOURHD dot com as Joyce explores a variety of knowledge.

692
00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:30.960
So you have the power to make scam protection your

693
00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:34.760
healthy habit, and until then, feel free to reach out

694
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:37.360
to Joyce and let's talk about scams.