Jan. 27, 2026

What can we do to stop overseas scammers?

What can we do to stop overseas scammers?
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This week’s guest is Ken Westbrook. He is the founder and CEO of Stop Scams Alliance. We will talk about tech support scams and how someone he loves was targeted. We will discuss where scams emanate and what our government can do to stop them.

Let’s Talk About Scams is broadcast live Tuesdays at 8AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Let’s Talk About Scams TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

Let’s Talk About Scams Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Disclaimer: The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional / legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references; however, R.O.S.E. Resources / Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/let-s-talk-about-scams--6483699/support.

WEBVTT

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This program is designed to provide general information with regards

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to the subject matters covered. This information is given with

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the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station

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are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling,

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professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services

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of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.

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Understand the information contained in this podcast is intended for

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informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual

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professional legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from

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vetted sources and references. However, Rose resources outreach to safeguard

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the elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim

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to a scam. Let's talk about scams. It's the must

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listen show for anyone who wants to protect themselves and

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their loved ones from scams. Every Tuesday am, Pacific time

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on K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose,

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and her guests will provide valuable insights and practical tips

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on how to recognize and protect yourself from scams. And

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now here is your host, Joyce Petrowski.

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Good morning, everybody, My name is Brian Watson, community outreach

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specialist for Rose Resources Outreach to safeguard the elderly. Joyce

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is not available this week. I'm filling in this week

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and then two more weeks after that and then so

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today we have a guest. We were having a little

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bit of technical issues. Want is Ken still with us

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right now? There is okay, beautiful, Just want to make

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sure we didn't lose them with internet issues. So today

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we have the pleasure of having a guest. Ken Westbrook

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is the founder and CEO of Stop Scams Alive. They

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are a five oh one c three nonprofit whose mission

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is to significantly reduce scams in the United States. Their

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focus is to stop scams at the source before they

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reached the consumer in the first place. So last year

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in twenty twenty five, I heard Ken speak on a

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webinar and there were several different guests, but his presentation

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really stood out to me because I was impressed by

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the detail of the information he shared. I used to

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work with the irs, so I'm all about numbers, so

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numbers tell a story, and I thought it was super

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helpful to me, and I thought his information would be

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super helpful for our audience, and I'm a big fan

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of collaboration. We all have to work together, build each

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other up, share information, and we all have different areas

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that we focus on, and I know Ken has some

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just great information. So Ken, good morning and welcome to

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the show.

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Good morning to you. Thank you for hosting me today.

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Sorry about being laid a little bit, but I'm looking

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forward to having a good discussion with you. And by

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the way, I'm a numbers freak too, so if there's two,

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if we get too geegee for anybody. I apologize for

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that in advance. But numbers, as you said, numbers are

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really important.

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They really are because you know, especially when we look

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at the FBI's Elder Fraud Report or any data from

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the Federal Trade Commission, we can see that the trend

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is not good in the United States. The numbers are

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getting worse every single year.

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Yeah, and we're Jen.

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Let's start out, was what was your reason for starting

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Stop Scams Alliance?

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Well, so my personal story is I didn't know all

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that much about scams. You know, I saw I read

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stories about them in the news, of course, and I

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knew that they were an issue. But in February of

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twenty twenty three, my mom was scammed. She got a

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pop up on her computer that said that her computer

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had been hacked and she needed to call Microsoft, and

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when she called the one eight hundred number, she was

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talking to criminals who ended up stealing most of her

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life savings. So with that incident, I started to look

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into this situation and I became really alarmed because it

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wasn't only my mom. It's millions of moms and millions

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of dads, and millions of even younger people are now

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being scammed at industrial scale. And at that point, I,

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given my government background, I figured I just need to

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throw my hat in the ring and help safeguard the

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country from this attack.

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Now where did you learn that most of these scams

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are originating from?

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Well, my background, my professional background is in the CIA.

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I served there for thirty three years as an analyst,

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and so I'm familiar with foreign threats and how to

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analyze them. And what I did after my mom scam

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was to look at the US government data, but even

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more importantly British data and Australian data, and the British government,

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for its part, in twenty twenty two, declared scams a

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national security threat and they said that it amounts to

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many of the most of the crime complaints that they

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get now in the UK are scams instead of other

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types of crimes. And then they go on to say

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that about seventy percent, by their estimation, is foreign based.

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And so with that I started to poke around and

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ask the government about this, and privately they all tell

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me that in the US they think it's about ninety

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to put the case out there that most scams are

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foreign originated and the countries involved are China, the ethnic

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Chinese crime gangs in South East Asia. West Africa is

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a center. Also India is a center in South Asia.

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But the bad news is that this business model has

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gotten to be so lucrative that it's now starting to

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spread around the world. It used to be Southeast Asia based.

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Now scam centers are popping up in South America, in

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the Middle East, even in Europe. So it's really spreading

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like wildfire.

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When I do in person public presentations talking about scam prevention,

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I always get the question, you know, why don't we

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just go after these people? What is the challenge with

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these overseas criminal organizations.

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Well, so the thing is that US law enforcements jurisdiction

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ends at our border. So when you have mainly a

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foreign origin crime, these people are mainly located in other

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countries outside of our jurisdiction, and they're attacking us via

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the Internet and via our telephone system, and so it's

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now difficult for our law enforcement. Not that they don't try.

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They try really hard to go OCCASUN sees money. There

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was a recent seizure, a very large seizure of cryptocurrency

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from the Southeast Asian Crime GAG. And they can also

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sanction the countries or the criminal groups involved, but when

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it comes to putting them behind bars, they had to

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depend on the cooperation of the foreign countries and they're

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not getting enough of that frankly.

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So at the beginning of the show, you had mentioned

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the United Kingdom and Australia having success in combating scams,

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and you said one of the reasons they were treating

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it as a national security threat, something that I've seen

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you write that we need to do here as well.

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What are some specific examples of things that the UK

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and Australia. Australia are doing right well.

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So the first thing I would say is that they've

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recognized that this is a major problem, and they've prioritized

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their government to fight back. In both cases, in the

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UK and Australia, there's someone in charge of fraud policy,

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whereas in the US, if you ask who is in

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charge of fraud policy, the answer is nobody. There was

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a recent Goio report actually that said that there were

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thirteen agencies of the US government that has some jurisdiction

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over scams, but none of them have a strategic plan.

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There's no overarching strategic plan. The US simply has not

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recognized the size of this problem. At the federal government level.

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In the UK and Australia, they have In the UK

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the Homelands excuse me, the British Home Office is in

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charge and they actually have a former member of Parliament

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who's in charge of fraud policy. In the case of Australia,

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they've assigned the responsibility to the Treasury Department, so there

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they have an official who organizes the Australian government to

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fight back more effectively. So that's number one is just

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to recognize the problem and put somebody in charge. The

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second one in both cases UK and Australia, they have

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created mechanism mechanisms to centralize data from victims, from banks,

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from social media, from telecom companies, so that they can

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get a better threat intelligence picture. We haven't done that

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in the US either, And then the third piece is

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a little more complicated. It would take a little more

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time to explain, but basically it has to do with

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putting measures in place to know who is on the

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other end of a phone call, who's on the other

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end of an online ad, who's on the other end

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of a website, who's on the other end of a

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text message. We don't have those mechanisms in the United States,

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but other countries are putting authentication mechanisms in place so

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that people are more can have a better judgment about

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who they're communicating with.

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One of the other questions I get from audience members

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at presentations is why can't our government and the phone

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companies stop these income scam phone calls, especially the ones

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where you know they'll spoof the same area code to

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kind of give it some legitimacy. And you know, the

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best answer I usually give is, these scammers can spoof,

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they can do voice over IP, They're very technically savvy

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in terms of making their overseas phone calls a pure

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legitimate is our government doing enough with that? Are the

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phone companies doing enough? What? Or and also you know

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any of these other big tech companies are what? Are

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are we doing enough? And can we do more?

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No, they're not doing enough, and yes we could do more.

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The good news is that. Let me give you a

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couple of examples of recent moves to do more. In

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the case of Google and Android phones, starting in March

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of twenty twenty five, so that would be about nine

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months ago now, Google started to analyze voice and text

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messages win the voice and text message is unencrypted on

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your device. They use artificial intelligence at the edge on

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your device. It never goes to Google servers. It's all

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done on your device. What Google does is to detect

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characteristics of a scam text or phone call and then

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they warn the user or they take the scam message down.

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And there's been an independent study that shows that's quite effective.

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So it seems as if Google has found a way

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using to defend ourselves, and Google has a good stab

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at how to do that. I haven't seen a reaction

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from another on the phone side. After some lobbying that

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took place, the FCC in October released a rulemaking process

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and they're asking for comments now, and actually the comments

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are doing a week and I'm working on a reply.

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The proposal from the FCC is to do things like

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mark foreign phone calls that you know when you're getting

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a foreign phone call, and maybe even blocking the fore

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and foreign call if it's pretending to be a domestic call,

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so it's a call coming from India but it's displaying

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Los Angeles in the caller ID field, well that should

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be a sign of a fraud and that call could

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be blocked. And the overall thing that the SEC is

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proposing to do is to put more authentication in place

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in caller ID so that you have a better idea

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of who the caller is, who's contacting you. So all

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that's good and Stop Scams Alliance is supporting that and

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we're replying. We're preparing our reply this week.

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Beautiful. Now, thanks for sharing that, and that's good news

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because we also we get a lot of questions about

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artificial intelligence and criminals using it, so it's imperative that

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the good guys use the AI as well. So with

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our nonprofit, we recognize that every age group gets scammed,

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but the older we get, the more we lose. For

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a variety of reasons from everything that you know being

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in the fraud prevention world. What is the number one

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scam affecting older adults.

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Well, when you look at the FBI data, this is

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now people who report to the FBI, so it's not

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everybody does report to the FBI. So it's kind of

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a fraction of the data, but it's the best we have.

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So if you look at the FBI data, if you

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look at the number of victims, the number one scam

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affecting older people is the tech support scam, the one

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that got my mom. It starts with a pop up

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on your computer, which is normally delivered by a malicious

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online ad by the way, and then people it freezes

227
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your computer, you can't use it, and people in desperation

228
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call the one eight hundred number, which is invariabol red

229
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type there for you to because the whole point of

230
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the pop up is to get you to call that number.

231
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And when you call that number, you are in the

232
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hands of transnational organized crime games who are very skilled

233
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at separating people from their money. If you look at

234
00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:23.480
the FBI data a different way and do it by

235
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the dollars loss or the reported dollars lost. The number

236
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one scam is investment scams, and most of those are

237
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fake cryptocurrency investment scams. So someone is coaxed after a

238
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period of grooming, they believe that they're talking to somebody

239
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who's skilled a cryptocurrency. They're here to help you, and

240
00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:45.960
then they coax you into making a at first a

241
00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:50.919
legitimate cryptocurrency investment. Then they move you to another platform

242
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where the profits are manipulated, so it makes it look

243
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to the victim like they're making money hand over fist,

244
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and that prompts to put more and more money in

245
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until they put all of their money in and the

246
00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:06.360
criminal then pulls the plug and your money's all gone.

247
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So this sometimes goes by the name of pig butchering.

248
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It's the it's the skill set of the Southeast Asian

249
00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:17.759
crime games in Me and Mark Cambodia aloos and that's

250
00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:20.720
the by dollars loss, that's the number one scam by.

251
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Far, beautiful. Thank you for sharing. Now, I've been telling

252
00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:27.559
some people a little bit different when it talks to

253
00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:31.159
pig butchering, I always talk that it's a long play scam.

254
00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:35.039
They build that trust over a long period of time.

255
00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:40.759
They kind of casually mention investing in cryptocurrency, almost to

256
00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:45.080
get them to ask about it. But I've been telling

257
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people that the original small investment is actually fake and

258
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that they're showing you a portal because I've spoken to

259
00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:57.759
victims who've seen a portal that shows games. But what

260
00:15:57.799 --> 00:16:03.240
you're saying is the initial investment in these cryptocurrencies can

261
00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:04.440
actually be legitimate.

262
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So that's my understanding. I could be wrong about that,

263
00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:12.559
but I have heard that they often switched you to

264
00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:15.639
another platform, and that would be the fake website. Of course,

265
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Now what's the first one? I thought it was not legitimate,

266
00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:21.519
but it doesn't really matter at some point in this

267
00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:26.159
long con You're absolutely right. They get people to start,

268
00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:31.200
maybe after another period, to start investing in a website

269
00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:34.879
that is manipulated. It's owned by the criminals. It looks

270
00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:38.759
like a cryptocurrency website, but it's really not okay. Now

271
00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:42.320
on that score, what can we do about it? And

272
00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:46.120
let's point back to best practices in Australia and the

273
00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:51.000
UK again. In both cases, the UK and Australian governments

274
00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:55.600
have national federal level efforts to find those fake investment

275
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websites and to shut them down. Beautiful every day. Australia

276
00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:06.279
is shutting down many of these things. They've shut down

277
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I think over three thousand of them in the last

278
00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:12.680
few years. And investment scams in Australia are going down,

279
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:16.400
whereas investment scams in the US are going up like

280
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a rocket ship. And it may be other factors involved,

281
00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:22.240
like there's education, of course, that could have be having

282
00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:24.680
an impact in Australia, but it seems to me that

283
00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:27.759
part of the dent that Australia is making in the

284
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:31.039
bad guys profits is the federal effort to find the

285
00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:33.440
fake investment websites and to shut them down quickly.

286
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:38.599
Now, when I heard you speak at that webinar, the

287
00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:41.720
thing that impressed me is you provided you pointed out

288
00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:46.160
the stats for the tech support scam, and the thing

289
00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:49.359
that jumped out to me was tech support scam losses

290
00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:55.839
are one hundred and seventeen times more than ransomware losses.

291
00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:59.079
And ransomware seems to get a lot of publicity because

292
00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:07.559
district or some entity that gets their information locked up

293
00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:10.400
and held hostage by these scammers and then they end

294
00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:13.759
up paying these ransoms and losing the money. But your

295
00:18:13.799 --> 00:18:17.200
analysis of the data shows that tech support scam is

296
00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:18.880
way bigger than the ransomware.

297
00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:24.119
Yes, if you look at both FBI and FTC data,

298
00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:28.319
both the FBI and FTC. Now this is again limited

299
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:30.720
data because it's the data that's reported to the FBI

300
00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:32.880
and the FTC, and there's a lot of this is

301
00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:36.880
not reported. But nevertheless, both the FBI and the FTC

302
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:41.160
will tell you that ransomware is much less common and

303
00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:46.559
much less injurious than the investment scams and the tech

304
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:50.960
support scams and the other confidence scams that go on. Now,

305
00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:55.480
one of the reasons that ransomware does get extra attention

306
00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:59.000
from our government is ransomware can be the precursor to

307
00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:02.680
an attack on our infrastructure, such as shutting down a

308
00:19:02.680 --> 00:19:05.960
pipeline or shutting down a hospital. So it's not only

309
00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:09.880
the dollars loss in ransomware that's the factor, but our government.

310
00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:14.160
In twenty twenty three, I think stood up a White

311
00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:16.960
House level office and one of their main efforts is

312
00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:20.359
to focus on ransomware. So one of our messages is

313
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:24.920
it's time for the White House to start treating consumer losses,

314
00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:28.400
which are far in excess of ransomware, with the same

315
00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:35.039
kind of organizational effort. You know, the US has domestic

316
00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:39.119
task forces to stamp out ransomware, we have international task

317
00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:42.880
forces to stamp out ransomware, but we don't really have

318
00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:46.559
a task force that's dedicated to focus on consumer losses

319
00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:47.400
from scams.

320
00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:53.359
What percentage of scams do you think are actually reported?

321
00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:56.240
You know, we'll never know for sure, But from all

322
00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:58.359
the research you've done and the people you've talked to,

323
00:19:58.440 --> 00:19:59.559
what do you think that number is?

324
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:05.160
So don't listen to me. Listen to the FTC. They've

325
00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:08.039
done some studies, they've looked at the academic research. They

326
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think it's between two and six point seven percent. Two

327
00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:15.640
percent if a small dollar amount is lost, but someone

328
00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:20.319
who loses more money is more likely to report, in

329
00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:22.519
their view, and that gets you to the point six

330
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:26.559
point seven percent mark in their view. There's an independent

331
00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:32.519
data point, the Stop Scams Alliance, our organization, asked Gallup

332
00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:36.960
to do a survey in October of twenty twenty three,

333
00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:41.039
and the answer came back from Gallup that eight percent

334
00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:47.119
of people reported having been victimized by scams. And when

335
00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:50.680
you looked at the number's twenty one million Americans. And

336
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:53.279
then when you compare that twenty one million to the

337
00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:56.480
number of people who report to the FBI. It turns

338
00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:59.279
out that about five percent of Americans were reporting to

339
00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:02.200
the FBI. So I think there's multiple data sources that

340
00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:06.240
say five percent plus or minus is about the number

341
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:10.160
of people who actually report. I've looked also at overseas.

342
00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:14.640
You know, I speak a lot about the best practices

343
00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:18.279
in the UK and Australia, but over there they say

344
00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:22.200
that they think about ten fifteen, twenty percent of people report,

345
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:25.720
and that's under the best practices where the government's really

346
00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:27.319
trying to get people to do that, and they have

347
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:31.799
centralized reporting. So if the country's doing the best at

348
00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:33.799
this can only get to ten or twenty percent, it

349
00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:36.039
makes perfect sense that we're around the five percent level.

350
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:41.160
So why is the reporting number so low in your opinion.

351
00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:45.359
Well, the best data we have comes from a survey

352
00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:48.960
that was done by the Global Anti Scam Alliance last

353
00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:52.680
year in late twenty twenty five. They found that about

354
00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:55.559
five percent of people said that they didn't report because

355
00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:59.559
of shame. But they found that about that much larger

356
00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:04.720
numbers twenty twenty five percent. We're saying that they didn't

357
00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:07.400
report for the following reasons. One is they didn't know

358
00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:11.960
how to Two, it was too complicated. Three, they didn't

359
00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:13.559
think it would do any good if they did so.

360
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:16.240
So when you add up those three answers, that's the

361
00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:20.359
majority of the reporting. And shame is another reason for it.

362
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:23.240
So there's a variety of reasons. I can tell you.

363
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:25.799
In the case of my family, but my mom was scammed.

364
00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:29.240
My brothers were doing a lot of the legwork to

365
00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:32.400
report this, and they didn't want to report it first,

366
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:36.559
and I said, but you know, and their argument was, ken,

367
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:38.839
even if we do, the government's not going to do

368
00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:41.839
anything about it anyway, why should we go through the effort.

369
00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:45.200
But I prevailed and it did some of the work myself,

370
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.720
and so we ended up reporting to over a dozen

371
00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:52.880
agencies and companies. And I learned from that experience that

372
00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:55.039
it is complicated. It's there's not one place to go,

373
00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:58.279
there's several places to go, and everybody asked for different

374
00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:02.160
information and by the way, none nobody ever gets back

375
00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:05.720
to you. Right, you're really you're you're doing the data.

376
00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:09.039
What you're doing is you're feeding a data a base,

377
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:11.799
which is good and that allows the government to have

378
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:16.000
better data. But you know, the data show that most

379
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:18.960
people are never contacted and most money is never retrieved.

380
00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:22.680
It's very sad, you know. I I do tell people

381
00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:26.039
that it is important to report one so that the

382
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:29.759
government has good data, and that sometimes too, a smaller

383
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:32.640
case can become a bigger case, or they can connect

384
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:35.559
the dots on another one. You know, I've done over

385
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:38.559
eighty five presentations, and I always ask that question, what

386
00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:42.039
is the number one reason in your opinion that people

387
00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:45.359
don't report being the victim of a scam? And I

388
00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:49.000
always get the word embarrassment, you know, which goes to

389
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:52.559
what you just said, the shame, right, And then I

390
00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:55.640
agree with everything you said there. You know, what's the point.

391
00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:59.920
It's too complicated. Some people don't even know their skin,

392
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:07.160
so it's it's absolutely it's absolutely brutal. Now, did you

393
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:11.599
ever see the movie The Beekeeper?

394
00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:15.000
I definitely saw The Beekeeper?

395
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:18.240
So what was what was accurate in that movie and

396
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:21.440
what was not accurate from from your knowledge of that

397
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:22.440
particular scam.

398
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:24.960
By the way, one time I was speaking at a

399
00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:28.680
conference and the person introduced me, uh sit by saying,

400
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:31.640
you know you've all seen the Beekeeper movie. Well, let

401
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:33.920
me introduce you to the real beekeeper, and his name

402
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:38.000
is Ken Westbrook. So that was a nice introduction, kind

403
00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:41.799
of the humorous way of introducing right. So the accurate part.

404
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:45.799
I think they portrayed very well the beginning. In the

405
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.000
beginning of the movie, the elderly person who received a

406
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:53.119
pop up on her computer which led to her being

407
00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:57.160
enticed to send money to the scammers and including money

408
00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.519
that she was holding in a nonprofit for charity purposes,

409
00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:03.680
and then the devastating impact that it had on her.

410
00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:07.440
She ended up committing suicide. In my mom's case, I mean,

411
00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:10.200
it just reminded me so much of my mom's case

412
00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:12.240
because she got the pop up on her computer too,

413
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:16.200
and it did have a devastating effect on her as well.

414
00:25:16.279 --> 00:25:19.119
She didn't commit suicide, but I can tell you that

415
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:22.440
from the moment that scam happened in early twenty twenty three,

416
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:27.880
her health took a nosedive, and a year later, some

417
00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:33.480
FBI agents visited her home to ask her to tell

418
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:36.000
again the story of her being scammed because they were

419
00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:39.480
pursuing a case in New York, and while she was

420
00:25:39.559 --> 00:25:42.240
thrilled that they were pursuing a case, it brought the

421
00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:45.440
whole experience back to her. That evening she had the

422
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:47.839
first of a series of heart attacks that ended up

423
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:51.440
taking her life within a few months. So my family

424
00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:53.480
has a lot of doctors in it, and you know,

425
00:25:53.799 --> 00:26:00.279
it seems to them, you know, the health she really

426
00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:03.400
her health went off to cliff after the scam, and

427
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:05.680
then a year later she was gone.

428
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:09.480
I'm sorry to hear that. That's just it's horrible. I mean, yeah,

429
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:12.079
people think, you know, scams is just money, but there

430
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:15.880
are they're collateral effects, you know, like you said, the shame,

431
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:20.519
the PTSD, the playing it over and over.

432
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:22.240
You know.

433
00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:26.759
I met a lady in Arizona here who lost one

434
00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:30.640
hundred and eighty nine dollars in a jury scam, and

435
00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:33.720
it had been months and she told me about it,

436
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:37.240
and she was still beating herself up over it, you know.

437
00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:39.759
And most people would think one hundred and eighty nine

438
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:42.240
dollars is nothing, you know, no one wants to lose

439
00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:45.759
that money, but you're going to survive. But she was

440
00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:49.799
still beating herself up because she was basically said, I

441
00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:53.359
was so dumb and is that embarrassment? And that shame?

442
00:26:54.200 --> 00:26:56.240
And for her that was a large amount of money

443
00:26:56.279 --> 00:26:58.480
because she was on fixed income living in a very

444
00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:02.559
modest place. So I can only imagine it gets even

445
00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:08.279
more when when when there's more dollar dollar dollar losses

446
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:11.640
the other just coming back to the beekeeper. Can you

447
00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:14.559
know I saw the preview in the movie theater and

448
00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:16.680
I'm like, I have to go see that thing. And

449
00:27:16.759 --> 00:27:19.160
when I saw it, I was like, Wow, I could

450
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:21.880
see how people fall for it, you know. And when

451
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:24.759
the lady called in, you know, the scammers hadn't answer

452
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:30.519
for everything because they're professionals, they're organized criminal gangs. But

453
00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:33.440
the one thing that jumped out to me that I

454
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:37.319
was like, come on, this can't be real. The scammers

455
00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:40.519
happened to be like driving distance from where Jason's da

456
00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:43.519
them lived, Yes, and those that thing that I was like,

457
00:27:43.640 --> 00:27:47.079
come on there, it's just too convenient, right.

458
00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:48.759
So I was about to say that, you know, if

459
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:51.200
we go to the things that are not realistic, the

460
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:54.480
call center being located very near their home in the

461
00:27:54.599 --> 00:27:58.839
United States is not realistic at all. The FBI says

462
00:27:59.319 --> 00:28:02.359
that the call center this is they call these call

463
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:04.599
center scams because the whole point is that get you

464
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:08.480
to call someone to coach you into sending your money.

465
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:13.680
And the FBI says the call center scams originate mainly

466
00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:20.720
in South Asia. Pase, excuse me, mainly in India when

467
00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:22.680
I talked to investigators India, and.

468
00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:32.160
Yeah, it's when I work for the I R S.

469
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:36.720
The bane of my existence was the IRS impersonation scam.

470
00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:41.079
And most of the people I talked to who had

471
00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:44.920
received that call said the caller had what they considered

472
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:48.759
to be an Indian accent. And right, it's just and

473
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:52.119
they're just making thousands, if not millions of calls and

474
00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:54.599
just hoping that one person believes it is the I

475
00:28:54.759 --> 00:28:59.480
R S. Now earlier, you mentioned pig butchering, which is

476
00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:05.519
basic getting people to invest in cryptocurrency. But they're not

477
00:29:05.640 --> 00:29:09.440
really investing in cryptocurrency. And it's a tragic scam. I mean,

478
00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:13.039
they're all tragic, but the scammers are going for everyone's

479
00:29:13.079 --> 00:29:18.759
life savings. It's like a complete wipeout. In Arizona here

480
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:22.759
we've passed a new cryptocurrency KIOSK law that puts in

481
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:29.240
new consumer protections in place. There's a new users can

482
00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:35.200
only put in two thousand dollars, the operators are liable

483
00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:39.440
for any fraud up to thirty days. There has to

484
00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:44.400
be warning signs, and lastly, you're provided a little you

485
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:47.319
need to be provided a receipt to show where that

486
00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:51.599
the funds went, like a digital wallet, so that investigators

487
00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:58.680
have a starting point. Let's talk about cryptocurrencies. Cryptocurrency ATMs

488
00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:02.039
briefly explained our users, I mean to our listeners who

489
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:05.160
are not familiar with what a cryptocurrency ATM is.

490
00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:11.200
Well, ATM is kind of a misnomer because normally the

491
00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:15.279
word ATM is used to get money out of the machine,

492
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:18.480
and in crypto ATM you can only put your money in,

493
00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:20.960
and the point of it is to is to convert

494
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:26.559
the cash money into cryptocurrency, but you can't get money

495
00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:32.960
out that way. I applaud Arizona for its recent law,

496
00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:35.759
and I can tell you now that there's about a

497
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:40.759
dozen states that have laws that put some kind of restrictions,

498
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:47.480
especially on people who recently establish an account. So that's

499
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:50.680
one of the hallmarks of the cryptocurrency scam is that

500
00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:54.559
criminals convince someone to set up a cryptocurrency account and

501
00:30:54.599 --> 00:31:07.559
then immediately that also puts a cap of two thousand

502
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:10.279
dollars on new accounts, and even after that, I think

503
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:13.920
it only goes three thousand dollars even after the new

504
00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:19.440
period expires. Other states are introducing similar legislations. So there's

505
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:21.920
by my count, there's at least a dozen states that

506
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:28.279
have restrictions, and there's dozens more that have restrictions that

507
00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:32.079
are in the legislature under consideration. At the federal level,

508
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:35.839
Senator Durbin introduced a law, but it doesn't seem to

509
00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:41.880
be going anywhere. So I don't see much federal momentum

510
00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:46.519
to put restrictions in place. Fact, the cryptocurrency industry in

511
00:31:46.759 --> 00:31:51.160
Washington is trying to introduce legislation that would force areas.

512
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:59.000
It's much larger and less effective. So this is a

513
00:31:59.319 --> 00:32:01.960
debate in our entry about how to handle the threat

514
00:32:02.039 --> 00:32:06.680
that's posed by crypto ATM machines. There's a recent requirement

515
00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:09.799
from the Treasury Department that outlines the extent to which

516
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:14.160
cryptocurrency ATM machines are used in crime, and they especially

517
00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:16.799
point to the harm that's causing to the elderly population.

518
00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:19.880
Now, thank you for sharing that, and I really appreciate

519
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:25.119
that insight on the misnomer of calling an ATM. And

520
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:28.960
you know, even in Arizona it's called the Cryptocurrency Kiosk Law.

521
00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:32.000
So do you think it's more appropriate just to refer

522
00:32:32.119 --> 00:32:36.119
to them as kiosks probably, I think so.

523
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:40.359
The Treasury Department, for its part, talks about it in

524
00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:43.759
terms of crypto kiosks as well, and then they later

525
00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:47.880
on in the document introduced the term crypto ATM just

526
00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:50.960
because they're commonly known that way. But I think it's

527
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:54.279
more appropriate to call them crypto kiosks because ATM is

528
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:55.279
totally misnomer.

529
00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:56.359
Right.

530
00:32:56.839 --> 00:33:03.279
So what do crypto and see kiosks or ATMs offer

531
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:06.400
to society? What are the if you had to argue

532
00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:09.160
for it, What would be the benefit to society if

533
00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:09.720
there is any?

534
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:12.880
Well, just saying I don't argue for them at all,

535
00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:18.720
I would note too that the British government, for its part,

536
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:23.079
banned them entirely about three or four years ago. So

537
00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:26.160
there are no crypto ATM machines in the UK, and

538
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:28.920
if they are, if they some were installed in the

539
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:32.079
police found them and took them out. Australia also has

540
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:37.720
put pretty severe restrictions on crypto kiosks. In the US,

541
00:33:37.799 --> 00:33:40.359
it's being done on a state by state basis, and

542
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:42.640
the good news is that more and more states are

543
00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:47.519
doing If there's even some counties that are banning them altogether,

544
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:51.680
I'm aware of that. Happening in Minnesota, for example, So

545
00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:54.799
you know, there's nothing wrong with a county saying these

546
00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:56.960
things should not be allowed in our county because of

547
00:33:57.000 --> 00:33:59.680
the harm that they caused. I did ask one time.

548
00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:04.519
I talked to someone who was in the business of

549
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:09.880
the crypto ATM market, and I asked him what benefit

550
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:14.239
are they and his answer was they're useful for the

551
00:34:14.360 --> 00:34:17.760
unbanked population. So if you don't have a bank account,

552
00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:20.159
you might want to be using crypto ATM machines. But

553
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:25.320
I think that that's a pretty weak argument, Frankly, I

554
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:25.760
really do.

555
00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:29.079
And then when you actually look at the fees that

556
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:32.800
they charge and also the ext exchange rates. So let's

557
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:35.280
say you had one thousand dollars in cash and you

558
00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:38.079
wanted to invest in a crypt one of the thousands

559
00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:41.119
of the cryptocurrencies that are out there. You put that

560
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:44.000
one thousand dollars in and you may only end up

561
00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:47.920
with six or seven hundred dollars worth of cryptocurrency, so

562
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:52.400
you've instantly lost money. If you wanted to invest in cryptocurrency,

563
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:55.880
you can do it from the convenience of your home

564
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:57.559
computer or even your phone.

565
00:34:58.119 --> 00:35:01.440
That's absolutely correct. That's the only reason why I don't

566
00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:05.079
like the term crypto ATM machines because ATM usually conveys

567
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:08.480
to people a fee of two percent or three percent,

568
00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:12.400
whereas the fees charged by the crypto kiosks are far

569
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:15.679
in excess to that and not disclosed very well too.

570
00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:21.320
No, and words are important, you know, you know, calling

571
00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:24.079
it an ATM is a is a misnomber. I like

572
00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:26.800
the kiosk. I have other names for these machines, but

573
00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:31.320
I'll save those for another day. You know, some people

574
00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:35.400
have also said the name pig butchering is a horrible

575
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:40.440
name because it you know it, it kind of takes

576
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:44.039
a jab at the victims. It's just an awful term.

577
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:48.079
I like it in the fact that it gets people's

578
00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:52.000
attention and it starts a conversation, and it really wakes

579
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:55.280
people up at a at a presentation or a TV interview.

580
00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:58.320
What is your opinion of the term pig butchering and

581
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:02.360
do you think there's a better alternative name for it? Well,

582
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:04.440
it's I have the same opinion that you have, I

583
00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:08.639
think I in my writing, I usually use terms the

584
00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:14.199
official terms, which are investment scams. Is the term that

585
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:17.599
I see most often used by the FBI and the FDC,

586
00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:21.000
So I tend to stick to the official usage of

587
00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:21.400
the term.

588
00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:24.639
But I do understand completely what you just said earlier

589
00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:32.960
that it's a very inflammatory sounding word that really wakes

590
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:35.880
people up. And I tell you, the US and the

591
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:38.639
US government needs waking up on this issue. So I'm

592
00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:41.840
not opposed to its usage if it has a positive effect.

593
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:45.519
All right, I give you a magic wand, and you

594
00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:49.840
can change anything in the way our government handles scams.

595
00:36:50.119 --> 00:36:52.159
What would be the first thing you would do?

596
00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:55.679
The number one thing I would do is to appoint

597
00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:58.199
someone to be in charge of fraud policy in the

598
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:00.719
United States, and that would be best done at the

599
00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:03.559
White House level, but it could also be done at

600
00:37:03.760 --> 00:37:08.440
DHS or the FBI or dj My preference is the

601
00:37:08.599 --> 00:37:11.719
White House because that's what we've done before. When confronted

602
00:37:11.800 --> 00:37:16.920
with major societal issues like drugs in the nineteen eighties,

603
00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:20.599
we established a White House Drugs are in the White House.

604
00:37:20.920 --> 00:37:25.000
It's called Owen DCP. More recently, with ransomware, we talked

605
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:29.519
about this. When ransomware became a threat, the White House

606
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:33.039
established an office called the Office the National Cyber Director

607
00:37:33.559 --> 00:37:38.360
to safeguard the US from cyber threats. So in the

608
00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:40.559
case of scams. I think we just need to use

609
00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:43.719
the same playbook that we've always used in create a

610
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:47.960
White House official or office that focuses on this issue.

611
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:50.480
They then could do a better job of coordinating the

612
00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:53.400
various agencies than the agencies can do on their own.

613
00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:55.239
So that'll be the number one thing that I would do.

614
00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:58.079
Thank you for sharing. I'm going to start pushing that, Ken,

615
00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:01.039
we need a scamsar at the cabinet level at the

616
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:01.599
White House.

617
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:04.000
Well, if you want to, if you want to help

618
00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:07.519
push that, there's a recent bill was introduced on December

619
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:15.280
eleventh by a Republican and a Democratic representative, Representative Shri

620
00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:22.119
Bornia introduced a bill that would establish an office in

621
00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:25.519
the White House. So that's something that I'd like to

622
00:38:25.639 --> 00:38:28.079
bring people's attention to. There is a bill in Congress

623
00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:29.280
that would that would create this.

624
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:32.760
So we need to start a buzz. I love it, Ken.

625
00:38:32.920 --> 00:38:35.559
How does our audience get more information on the work

626
00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:36.559
that you guys do.

627
00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:40.840
Well, A lot of what we do is on our website.

628
00:38:40.840 --> 00:38:44.440
I'm proud to say it's the website's called Stop Scamsalliance

629
00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:47.559
dot org and we have on there on the homepage,

630
00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:50.159
I have the statements. For the record, I've now written

631
00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:53.079
four for the US Congress that explains what we've been

632
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:55.920
talking about today. We also have about half a dozen

633
00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:59.039
of eds that we've written for major newspapers that explain

634
00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:02.079
it in very short, two page kind of format. And

635
00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:04.239
then we have a media page. And on the media

636
00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:07.000
page we have some of the presentations that I've given

637
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:09.760
and the podcasts that I've given, so people can dig

638
00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:11.280
into those if they want to.

639
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:14.800
All right, I'm going to give you the last word.

640
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:17.039
Anything I didn't ask you about that you wanted to

641
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:18.119
share with our audience.

642
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:21.440
Well, So, one thing that just occurred to me is

643
00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:24.360
a couple of months ago, the Wilson Center approached me.

644
00:39:24.920 --> 00:39:28.480
The Wilson Center is a think tank in Washington, d C.

645
00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:32.639
Housing in the Ronald Reagan Building. It was created by Congress,

646
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:35.079
funded in part by Congress, and they asked me to

647
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:37.719
become a distinguished fellow working for them. So I'm now

648
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:41.480
one of the hats that I wear is to work

649
00:39:41.800 --> 00:39:43.760
as a distinguished fellow for the Wilson Center. And the

650
00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:46.280
reason that they asked me to join them. They normally

651
00:39:46.360 --> 00:39:49.199
do foreign policy work, but they've come to realize that

652
00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:53.440
scams is a foreign ish foreign threat, and they want

653
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:55.519
to help bring awareness to this and to raise it

654
00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:59.000
to the administration's level so that we can get executive

655
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:00.280
branch and congressional action.

656
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:06.599
Beautiful, Well, congratulations, that's awesome. So Ken, I just want

657
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:09.679
to thank you one for giving up your time today

658
00:40:09.719 --> 00:40:12.719
and sharing your expertise, and I just as a fellow

659
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:17.360
fraud fighter, I want to say thank you because there

660
00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:19.800
aren't enough of us and we have to work together

661
00:40:19.880 --> 00:40:23.400
and collaborate and share ideas and encourage each other. I

662
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:27.119
learned things today just chatting with you, and it's very

663
00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:31.639
motivating for me as well. Gives me some ideas that

664
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:35.800
I can use out here in Arizona. And keep up

665
00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:37.719
the good work. And we're going to have to have

666
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:42.320
you again in the future and talk about some additional topics.

667
00:40:43.039 --> 00:40:45.519
Okay, well, wonderful. Well, Actually, one more thing we're doing

668
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:48.480
is we've raised the money to do a new Gallup survey.

669
00:40:48.559 --> 00:40:51.719
You know, we've talked in this podcast about the lack

670
00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:53.920
of data and how so a few people report, well

671
00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:57.039
you can measure this much better with a national survey,

672
00:40:57.239 --> 00:40:59.719
like through Gallup. So that's in the field. Now we're

673
00:40:59.719 --> 00:41:01.719
starting We're going to be getting the results back in

674
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:05.000
a few weeks and then a report should be available

675
00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:09.679
in May. So that's our contribution to getting more data

676
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:11.880
out there about the prevalence of scams and how they

677
00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:14.360
happen and what we can do to raise our defenses

678
00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:16.960
to fight back. And I appreciate you very much having

679
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:19.639
me on your show today. I enjoyed talking to you

680
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:25.000
and if they has some follow up, I'm all for it, beautiful.

681
00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:29.000
Thanks Ken. So this is that's the show for today, everybody.

682
00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:31.920
We will be back next week. I'm actually bringing in

683
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:35.320
a former colleague of mine from IRS Criminal Investigation. His

684
00:41:35.480 --> 00:41:38.760
name is Special Agent Christopher Shere, and we're going to

685
00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:41.639
cover some of the same topics we did today, just

686
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:44.920
maybe from a different angle from an agent who's doing

687
00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:49.800
investigations as we speak. So thank you all for watching.

688
00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:52.400
Let's talk about scams. We'll see you next Tuesday morning.

689
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:53.480
Thank you very much. Bye bye.

690
00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:59.000
Well that's all the knowledge for this episode, Julian every

691
00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:03.079
Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on KFORAHD Radio at

692
00:42:03.159 --> 00:42:07.519
KFORAHD dot com, as Joyce explores a variety of knowledge

693
00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:11.280
so you have the power to make scam protection your

694
00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:15.039
healthy habit, and until then, feel free to reach out

695
00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:17.599
to Joyce and let's talk about scams.