Who Is Most Vulnerable to Romance Scams

0:01 This program is designed to provide general information with regards to the subject matters covered. This information is given with the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services. Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas. The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references. However, Rose Resources outreach to safeguard the elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam. Let's talk about scams. It's the must listen show for anyone who wants to protect themselves and their loved ones from scams. Every Tuesday am Pacific time on K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose, and her guests. We'll provide valuable insights and practical tips on how to recognize and protect yourself from scams. And now here is your host, Joyce Petrowski.

1:19 Hi, everybody, welcome, back. Hope everybody had a great long Labor Day weekend. And I'm Joyce Petrowski, founder and board president of Rose Resources Outreach to safeguard the elderly. You're going to want to get on our. Website, Roseadvocacy dot org. You'll find all of our social media links on the homepage and scroll down to the bottom and you'll find where you can sign up for our emailed newsletter and our mailed newsletter, and don't forget. You're going to want to click subscribe so you don't miss an episode of our Let's Talk About Scams show. And today we have a prior guest that's going to join us, doctor Martina Dove. She's an expert in scam specifically against the older adults, and she wrote a book called The Psychology of Fraud, Persuasion and Scam Techniques. And so today we're going to talk about more about the romance scam and some different techniques that scammers use. So let's welcome doctor Martina Dove.

2:23 Hello, everyone, nice to be here again. Thank you Martina for for doing this again. So we talked a little bit about it, but what are some of the scam or techniques that scammers use as it pertains specifically to romance scams. Yeah, like there's you know, I would say roman scams are quite complicated as scams because techniques tend to be layered all the time. So you know, you have a time where you're building rapport with a you know, a potential victim, so you get to layer techniques over and over and over, which like in a process that I call grooming. That it's known actually in the industry is grooming.

3:07 So some of the techniques from the beginning, it's engaging the the you know, potential victim in the conversation where you're just getting that first commitment stage where you're exchanging messages every day, you're talking several times a day, you're building that trust and that bond. But I think, you know, kind of like more recents comes also focused on getting that kind of like a habit forming behavior from the victims. So you know that you are engaging in a conversation every day. These conversations are positive and you know the victim is responding to that kind of treatment and it's getting I don't want to use the word hooked, but it's getting accustomed to having that attention every day and having that friendship every day. So it starts like that, and then as the time progresses, this camera may send little tokens, you know, and gifts such as, you know, I've heard victims tell me he sent me some money for presents he sent me, Like one victim told me he sent me a birthday cake. I ate it, like it crazy, you know, for my birthday. So like, it's not uncommon that cameras will invest a little bit of money in the beginning to kind of send the victims some you know, kind of like tokens of love. And that serves two purpose, you know, dual purpose basically, one you know purpose it serves is that it adds credibility

4:39 to the relationships. So if you have friends and family questioning whether this is a real relationship because the person has not met this person in real life, right, like, like why would somebody be sending your gifts they're not interested? So that a real right exactly, It makes it all the more real, It makes it really credible. And then on the other hand, you know, there's a non technique called reciprocity. It's when somebody does as favors, we feel obliged to do them favors, So it's really grooming the victim to feel obliged when Ascama needs. A favor, return the favor, and that's usually.

5:20 When they need the money. So so basically it starts like that. It starts very positive, It starts with these like topics of love. What I'm seeing recently as well is that there are a lot of credibility c cues whereas Comer is openly sending you know, like it's proof of what they're telling the victim, where they're sending them to websites they talk about, you know, and they create these things right Like so let's say Escama will tell you they work abroad and they have a company. There'll be a website for that company. You know, they'll be they'll be you know, they'll clone websites of banks once uh down the road, when they're asking for money or something like that, you'll credentials to log into the bank account, which is real, it's not real application made just to scam victims.

6:14 And they're they're getting really good at cloning websites, all different types of websites. Like and I would say, you know, this is where a new technology comes in with AI. It's very very easy to create. You don't need a developer, you know, need to create uh this realistic looking prototypes. You know that mimic bil website, you know, our applications. So then kind of like after that initial stage, you know, there will be typically in Roman scamps, there will be something called what I call a critical incident, uh somethings to the scammer, right, like like a lot of the times come doesn't ask for money, they will invent this incident either something happened, you know, and this story is very they were in the accident their business, you know, like somebody is suing them and and you know their accounts are locked. You know. I heard the story whereas Coma said there's been an explosion on a on a construction site that he runs and now he's been sued. You know.

7:20 So there's there's like these big, big stories and a lot of the times they'll support it with some pictures or something. Again, now with AI, it's really easy to actually create some content that would make it credible. And yeah, and through that, like I would say, through that incident is where a victim will offer to help because they feel guilty that now somebody they love by this time, you know, and grooming stage can last months and months and months, you know, and the conversations are very deep, and these conversations are very you know, very convincing. You know, the victim may want to help what they think is their boyfriend by this time, or fiance or you know, and and therefore, like a lot of the times, the victim will offer them money because they feel like they have to help, even when they feel uncomfortable, you know, they feel like they must do it, you know, because they you know, this person has been kind to them, and we are brought up to exactly return favors, be kind to people, help people. So it's really praying on all of those things. And then if that doesn't work, if you know that doesn't work, the comma may start, like I've heard stories such as the comma started saying they're going to kill themselves just short. You know, they'll start blackmailing the victim in some way, either like emotionally, or they'll start applying direct threats such as like I'm

8:53 going to leave this relationship. I see that you're not committed, you know. And and by this time, a lot of the times, victims are so committed at the money is like, you know, even just losing the money is not, as you know, as important to them as losing a relationship. You know. So a lot of the times, like they you know, scammers will take advantage of. That emotional bond, right, so it's that emotional toll afterwards, there's that financial aspect, but a lot of times that emotional psychological toll is much more severe, especially in this type of scam, because they've invested so much time, you know, with the scammer who they thought was a real well they are a real person, but you know that they believed that they were their fiance or boyfriend, girlfriend absolutely.

9:45 And you know, one thing that I'm also seeing, like I'm seeing like much more sophisticated techniques now than even just a few years ago, even just five six years ago, you know, because of the technology and because it's becoming very very very luc I've heard stories where victims have told me, you know, I messaged him on a dating site, but his profile we had so much in common. So I think, what's happening, what must be happening. I don't have any proof, but I think through these stories, I've heard enough stories now to think that perhaps commers are joining dating sites and looking at the profiles and then creating profiles that would appeal to very specific woman, right, you know, maybe mimicking their situation or their you know, what they're believing, what they like doing, or stuff like that, and then you feel like you've contacted them that it's not a scam. Do you see what I mean? So all of the advice that we've been giving two people to protect themselves, they are now trying to kind of like bypass with the new technique.

10:52 Oh right, because we talk about that uninitiated contact and you've got to be very very careful with that. But if you make the count act, then you already believe that this is a real control looking to date somebody, not just you have to scam somebody. You believe you're in control and therefore you're safe. Right. So it's I think I'm seeing more and more than the new and newer techniques are bypassing the advice about the old techniques. So they're getting you know, they're getting inventive. Right, and you know it's like you mentioned lucrative to them before, is they're going to constantly be changing their techniques and when they see what people are out there telling other people to do to protect themselves. Well then they're like, all right, well we're going to use that to our advantage.

11:43 And absolutely, yeah, it's. Extremely difficult to try to keep up with them, right and or stay one step ahead of them. It's very difficult. And I remember total anecdote, but I remember when I was starting my PG. I remember one of the examiners oppose the questions, you know, because you have to defend your idea and you have to keep depending your idea as you as you're studying. One of the examiners on you know, on my annual review was something said to me, aren't sure worried that cameras are going to take you know, kind of like pointers from your PhD? And I'm like no, because once they're behind, you know, I'm not you know, I'm I like, I couldn't think of everything that's comes to think, you know, you know, so I think, like, we are always one step behind, but it's important to be one step behind and not ten.

12:36 The exactly think yeah yeah, which you know goes to the fact about why it's so important for people to report yes, you know, even you know, good chance you're not going to get any of your money back. But you still should report because it gives not only law enforcement and prosecutors and information, is that it does get disseminated down to the you know, the public, and like we get information that we can then put out to people. Absolutely, I would say one other thing that I keep stressing about reporting even though and I think a lot of people don't report because they feel nothing would be done.

13:17 So it's not it's the waste of the time. But I say, it's not waste of your time because you know, like think about how big movements happen. They don't happen because one person did something. It happens because people came together and you know, created a procedure for like amplifying something. And I think when people report, the scale of the problem becomes apparent, and the problems that are at a high like a bally big scale get funded. You know. So I think, you know, when the government thinks there's not such a big problem, they're not going to be funding efforts to tackle those problems. So the more silent we are, it plays into the hands of cammers, you know.

14:02 Basically, Yeah, and I know just you know, in the state of Arizona. Looking at the FBI statistics every year, looking at you know, and that goes based on what people report and looking at how much money they lost in twenty twenty versus how much they lost in twenty twenty four. It went up six hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, And I think percentage, it's huge percentage. And I also think, like I do, think people are reporting more, and I think we are raising awareness that there's nothing to be ashamed of. This is a crime. This is a criminal activity, you know, and I think it needs to be reported. And I think, you know, I think like perhaps an increase is in the fact that some more people are reporting, because once upon a time, I think the figure for reporting was only like eight percent or something, you know, so it was just a tip of the iceberg, you know, when I was studying some of the fee for reporting very very low. I think that figure is higher, but it's still not one hundred percent.

15:06 I would like you to be handy, and it's not close. It's not even close to Yeah. Yeah, So changes over time, because the romance scam has been around for years, right, is the majority of the changes that you're seeing. Do you think is it because of artificial intelligence, it's about definitely. Artificial intelligence has enabled comers to operate cheaply. Right. So for example, whereas cams, you know, you could spot some like spelling mistakes, you know, and stuff like that. For example, Scamra wasn't native English speaker, you know, and for example, when they sent you an email, it wouldn't be perfectly beautiful.

15:52 Looking and the bad grammar anymore. Exactly. Now that all is smoothed over by you know, you can use chagipity free, you know. And I think depending on how like I know chagipity, Like if you'll say to you know, chagipity, hey, can you write me a fishing email? You won't do it, but you can trick it into writing a phishing email or tiding up your email and making it nice, nicely, you know better drammatically. So that's one aspect of it. And then there's like these fakes have become so good. You know, you can fake video, you can fake photographs, you can fake a rail of photographs. Whereas this comma, you know, like let's say just ten years ago, comma would have to go on somebody's Facebook adam as a friend, then steal their photos to them like be able to send some photos.

16:42 Now they can just generate, like you know, they can generate lots of photos that are the same person, you know, in different situations. So it's definitely adding to their credibility. And then you know, as I said, I'm seeing a really big uptick in credible like the extreme credibility cues that I call like and that's where a victim, you know, the critical incident happens right like somebody you know, and then the person says, look, you know, do you might account log into my account? Can you log into my account and just transfer money into that account from my account? And then they give the log in details. The victim things, they're in a Bank of America accountant. They not, they're in a prototype or a website that mimics them America.

17:33 They see, this person has lots of money, and you know, and a lot of the times the victims like when they when they were going through that thing, and that's purely done so that the trust is built up. The victims said to me, you know, like I felt almost privileged because he's trusting me to go into his bank account and send this money. And there was lots of money in this account, So I felt privileged. I thought, this is like we are really truly a partners, you know. So I think like those kind of things, more sophisticated techniques in terms of like apping these credibility things that add to trust, right, like that kind of build the trust. So I'm seeing a lot of that, and I think that's down to the AI because before it would cost like you know, it would cause this camera to build these things. Now it's easier and cheaper. And then also there's organized coming compounds now, right, so like it's a business.

18:30 It's like coming is run like a business. Whereas it used to be a lone person here and there maybe a small organized group. Now there's like you know, there's like it was, Yeah, it's serral, it's I mean, I mean, I'm I'm not laughing. I'm just like and sometimes I'm even impressed just how how serious they took the descrime and how brazen they are in how they operate. But yeah, I think all of that combined, you know, and then you have probably smart people like running it's supporting other people that are coming and you know, and so on. So yeah, definitely, So you mentioned you know about the scammer showing the victim that they trust them. Does that psychologically do you think make the victim want to then more readily trust the scammer?

19:28 Definitely? I mean, I mean think about this, right, like we believe what we see and hear, right, and and you know, like if you see somebody's bank account, right, this is the person telling you, hey, I'm rich. Right, this is a person showing you the are rige. But you've seen it with your own eyes. You think you've seen it with your own eyes, right, So of course you're going to trust it, you know. And they do that before you even ask them. So like what's smart about this whole thing is that kind I won't even wait for you to say, how do I know you're blah blah blah. They are offering these credibility cues before the victim even has a warning sign, you know. So it's really it's like really sophisticated manipulation. Whereas in a past, maybe you know, a victim would just say, hey, how do I know, like I don't want to send you the money, how do I know you bought a train ticket with that or something? Right? And then there would maybe fake a train ticket or plane ticket or something.

20:24 Now it's like the faking bank accounts and you'll send like literally you are sending the money. You are like making a wire transfer and having a process that any bank will have the meaning that you know, so why wouldn't you trust that? You know? And and and it's only kind of like when when a scam happens and and a victim has realized that they you know, some some victims have taken screenshots and then they realized that maybe the website wasn't exactly so but even you know, even some of the legitimate companies are using these proxy websites to send emails like mail champ and you know, so the links are not always coming from them.

21:04 A real we use mail champ and we send out our news. So hard to know, like it's really really hard to know sometimes, you know, and Amazon has all these spools not spools, but they have a lot of different types of kind of like uh, you know, ends of their emails or their you know, web addresses for different pages, and you know, it's very easy to just know, yeah, yeah, so. What was it? Well, right, so like when they they put on the scammer puts on the screen their bank account, right, your I think your eyes automatically go towards the dollar amount because they're trying to show you that they are rich or you know that they have not.

21:49 Even yeah, it's not even though they show you joyce. They send you a link to the website, can give you all evidentials to log in from several victims basically the camera. You know, I'm in like Emirates, Like my bank account is not allowing me to log in. Do you mind sending these business associates so that I avoid the legal things? Like they send a link to the bank's website, right, but it's not it's a link to a They give the victim details to log in. The log in is mimicked. The victim logs in, the victims doing it on their computer and they're seeing it. You know, like these prototypes act like you know, like you know, in production we call them, you know, when you're making products, we call them feature flags. They behave like a real product, right, but it's not yet in production, right, So so it's kind of like they can create these prototypes that look real and behave real and behave like a normal product.

22:56 It's very difficult to tell that it's not real. Yeah, very difficult. Well you have trained in that development part of it to know what to look for, and the majority of the people aren't, no. Because you wouldn't. Why would you? You know, Like I mean when you log in onto your bank account, like you're not paying attention to every single time in my new detail, right, Like it's a routine activity, right, So it's like, why wouldn't you? I think it's it's that moment of like being caught doing routine things that you're just not you know, why would you doubt somebody who's giving you the credentials tools? Right, they're credentials, right, because it's like, oh, they're supposed to keep that confidential, but they must really trust me.

23:38 And if they're creating me this information, well it's. Fay sinister and like that that didn't use to exist. So I'm not surprised that people are, you know, convinced that this is a real relationship. I mean, if somebody gave me logins to their bank account, I would think, well, Okay, this person really trusts me, and then like I would feel bad not trusting them, you know too. Right, right? That reciprocal. But so. I think when romance scams first started coming out, they the scammers would target the older adults, the seniors. Are they still the most vulnerable to these types of scams or.

24:27 I think not just for romance scams, but also to scams. I see a lot of like, elderly people specifically get a lot of scams for sweet stakes and things like that that comes from like these you know, two organizations that are trusted or that they the lottery and stuff like that, and or some like I think I can't remember what was the name of that, but like some kind of you know, organization that typically runs this switch takes. They'll mimic letters for that, so they're targeting people with letters as well as emails and stuff like that. So I would say the elderly people, I think the you know why I think elderly people get targeted a lot.

25:12 I think it's down to a couple of things. One is that, you know, perhaps they may be not as aware because they're not online so much, so they may not be aware of the new things, so you're catching them unaware. They typically have money because they reach the point in their life when they own their own houses for one case, you know, and when I say elderly, I don't often, you know, like they can spend you know, I think I would say older rather than elderly, you know, because like I think, you know, people are you know, can be older, but not necessarily completely vulnerable or anything like that. So, you know, but like you are the point of your life that actually you're a lucrative victim, So why not invest time in that victim, you know, because you can actually get a lot of money, especially with the speak Butcherings cams, with the with the romance fraud, you know, the amount of money tends to be larger.

26:09 But really anybody is vulnerable. You know. We're seeing now's extortion targeting children, you know, and again it's it's becoming very prominent exactly. So it's like I don't think there's an age group that isn't targeted. I think it's really depends what types of scams are sent to. I would say romans scams tend to target people that are you know, of an age where you may have gotten divorced, you know, and your house or you lost your spouse. Yeah, and I think this is where you're really vulnerable because you know, maybe you were out of the dating scene for a while, and therefore you're not aware of what's going on, right, Like like somebody else who's actively dating, you know, would maybe be aware. So it's kind of like trying to figure out like who is more vulnerable to what and then just hitting that demographic more aggressively. And there's a say that a young person wouldn't be hit with the Roman scams. Please don't quote me like anybody's vulnerable, always be, always be watching for scammers.

27:17 Yeah, everybody is vulnerable to any scam, right, It's just or I should say anybody is a target to any scam. It's just some age populations have a tendency to be a little bit more vulnerable to specific scams, right. And like you said, you know, especially with the older adults, you would have somebody that's maybe been married for fifty plus years and they lost their spouse. Well, that creates a huge loneliness. And then if they're not connected to their community, they're even more lonely, which is one of the you know, red flags for them. But this, you know, the SCAMMERSPC like if they're on a dating site or they're on Facebook and their relationship status is widow or widower and they have that and their you know, or they've been talking about on Facebook about the loss of their spouse and all of that.

28:14 I think we give out way too. Much information online, personal information. That scammers are constantly trolling all of these sites to gather information. And with AI, right, I mean that they can just plug in I'm looking for these keywords. And I wouldn't even say like that. I would say we posit that we likeink about how many data breaches have happened, and boy kids of information, you know. So for example, it's a known fact that when people become la widowed, or they suffer some medical you know, trauma or accident or illness, this is where the scammers start contacting you. This is not because they're trolling the Facebook, because that would be two time consuming. It's because they're stealing data. They're purchasing data, you know, and some of these organizations are selling data, you know, they're selling our data.

29:13 So it's kind of like I think it comes more nowadays. I think once upon a time, probably now nowadays probably comes from just being purchased for very little money and then just like you're being hit, you know, because these things are recorded in registries and and you know, some of this information is public information, you know, so it's kind of you know, like I would say, smart cameras don't invest a lot of time trolling anything. They already have that, you know, they can easily purchase. I think like some of credit card information can be purchased for like pennies, you know, or sense you know. So it's kind of like I mean, like a lot of times. So this is interesting when you mentioned credit card information.

29:57 My husband and I recently were out this new ice cream shop in the area and I used one of our credit cards to pay and it wanted me to like sign up for rewards or whatever, so I hate yes, and it immediately had all of my personal information. For the rewards. I didn't have to input it anymore. And it was like that had to have come from the credit card. It's it's not just a credit card like think of it, you know. And I've done a research project when I was working for Microsoft, I think, you know how on on data. And one of the interesting things that that I realized when I was doing some research on kind of how how a data gets uh sent and shared and so on and support. So like businesses will collect as much data about you as they possibly can, because they can target you with marketing things and they hit exactly advertising but not advertising offers. Right, if they hit you with the right offer, you know, it's a it's a legal is coming in a sense.

31:08 Right. So so basically, the more they know about you, the more they can actually target you with things that will be of interest, right the way you can purchase something. So so what happens is that let's say you know, like a shop or not to name any names, but let's say you're shopping with a certain shop. Are you ask shop or you know, a larger a department store, but the department stores what you're spending money on, they probably have kept some information on like maybe you loggin video number for rewards or something like that, so they know what you're purchasing, right, but they you know, maybe they know what you're purchasing and they know your like a laptop I D and your IP address if you're purchasing online. Right, So if I was that store, I don't have other information like who are you're voting for or who are you like? I don't know other stuff.

31:59 So they that they can go to a data broker who has collected other information about you, and like you're going to websites where you're reading news, or you're going on different social media sites with the same laptop with the same IP address, with the same laptop with the same ID, and they will join the data right like bio laptop I D right like your your you know computer ID, and they will create what it's known as golden red card. It's basically everything about you. And there are data brokers that have some pieces of information. The companies can go, can you tell me more about the person living in this IB address with this computer. They will then say, well, the same IP address as this computer, and that computer is browsing this, that and the other.

32:48 Because a lot of the times when I'm like, let's say browsing as still order, but my husband gets advertisements where still order, and I know they join the joining our data just be address, you know, because it's sending to a different computer like with a different but like that's how companies and legitimate companies do it all the time. They purchase data, they join data so that they know everything about you. Because if they know everything about you, they can then hit you with things that are interesting. And how is do to saying, you know, I mean no doubt. That they have access to buy that data, right, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it's interesting. I try a lot when I get.

33:30 On websites and it comes up and says we track cookies. You know you. Sometimes it'll give you the option to reject all except for the necessary ones, or manage them. And I'll either reject all or I'll go in and manage and I turn everything off. And it's because it's different by the company. Sometimes they have everything turned on and you have to turn off everything except for the strictly necessary ones. So if you turn everything off except strictly necessary, then is that, like by law, they're not supposed to be in essence tracking you and what you're doing. I think in America, I think some states. I think California has a law, but I don't know that most of the states don't really have good privacy laws. It's really yeah, it's stayed by state. I know in Europe they would have to abide by it, but they don't.

34:24 I still get like I lived in London for a long time and I still get like random emails, somebody sold my data even though you know I didn't, you know, they have to abide by JDPR, you know regulation where like they have to They can't just like contact me unless I've done business with them, but they purchased something like you know, from someone and and so like I think, you know a lot of the times, you know. What I find as well is that smaller businesses will abide by that because they're just two of and then a larger businesses will will still being yeah exactly, or if they don't get like even the strict cookies, like the cookies for performance website performance, right, they still track your IP address, they still truck some of the information, right like, so they can still join that information. Go to a data broker and say, hey, we have these these customers we don't have like you know, just give me a golden record on that, right and they'll you know, so a lot of our data is out there, you know.

35:27 And I think it's easy to purchase. I don't think it's very expensive. And actually when you go to websites for these data brokers, you can buy packages people who like buying for Fourth of July, people who like Christmas, people who you know, all of the purchase data is collected and curated, so that like for certain things that can hit people that actually have previously purchased, you know, purchase a lot of Christmas so buy lots of Christmas ornaments every single year. I go overboard, right, I'm probably on some list for that. Yeah, And you know that makes sense. So that brings up a question I've been reading articles about and they're usually subscription based where you can pay companies that will monitor your data online and wipe it.

36:16 You know, as they see it, they'll they'll get it off. So it's and it's normally a paid subscription. Is that two different things what we were just talking about what's collected on a website and then could be sold versus what is online? I don't know. I mean like it really depends like how you use it. I don't know. I think to some degree, maybe they'll have some success requesting that your data is removed, but as you browse again, it's on there somebody, it's on there again, and you know they're collecting things on you again. And also I think a lot of like I think when you're thinking about legitimate businesses, I'm not worried that notes from a target has information on what kind of things I bought in the stores or what kind of website I'm reading news on, Like I know they're not going to do anything bad about that, you know, Like it's it's just you know, and the worst they're going to send me some advertisement, right like, and that's fine, I will purchase or one purchase this up to me. But I think what I'm worried about is a lot of that data is also on dark web that you can e raise, you know, and then it's it's more difficult to manage, and that's where criminals are purchasing that data. So I do not yeah, exactly, So it really depends, like I feel like we have lost of war on data privacy. Just be very careful, like just be aware that you know, a lot of what it is on you know, what you do online is tracked in some way, and yeah, like it's it's

37:49 very much. Yeah, Like I do know what degree you could remove all of your data from everywhere. Including right because like you said, you know, you could have cookies enabled out there with a company that you haven't done business within ten years, but they're still there and they're still tracking you. And it's not just even like I think even when you OpEd out of the cookies or you know, like it's it's it's like, I think there are there are businesses that actually data is the business. They screate for data and data, you know. But I think a lot of these datas as well, like the legitimate companies keep on us, has been has been breached and stolen, and so it exists in another universe that I don't know, I don't know, yeah, exactly.

38:38 Yeah, the dark web. And I've noticed in the last year I've been seeing more data breaches to health companies, so whether it's an insurance company, whether it's some sort of like I think the most recent one I saw was with the dialysis center was breached. And you know, that's a lot of information, a lot of personal information out there. Yeah, no, it's it's really like I think that worries me as well. And I think a lot of the companies as well done abide by the hip either like they you know, you have to have a control over whether you want that information to be shared even you know, like for example, I go to a spa, you know, in my local gym for a massage and they have a form they should allow me to opt out of them sharing what I share with them, but the form is always broken and you can only accept and not deny.

39:38 And so I'm always very aware that I'm just not like I'm I'm so suspicious that I'm just not truthful. Sometimes I guard my date of birth. I guard my you know, like like if you know, I remember like some years ago I was subscribed to a magazine in England and like that subscription wanted my day to birth. Why I just I have a fake I have a fake data birth sometimes like I will put you know. So it's kind of like I think it's on a need to know basis, Like you don't need to and you don't need to be completely honest with your medical data. Like some applications that you know end up you know, being used for you to be targeted by like some products, you know. So so I feel like I think we are.

40:30 I don't know there is a good way to protect a data, you know. So just my my advice would be to just be careful with what you share online. Uh, and and kind of even just share online in terms of what seems like a legitimate company, not just on Facebook, you know, sharing your stuff. Right and and you know, like you said, always always question, you know why, don't don't be afraid to ask, you know, why do you need this information? And I often tell people if the response is, well it's a question on the form, that's not an answer. That just might be that the person you're asking has no idea I know information is really needed or not right.

41:12 Sometimes you can't even you're checking out, like at the store, and they'll want you or like your email address, like why just can I just forget a receipt you need? You know, Sometimes it's like, oh, but they prefer us to have your email address. Well, I prefer not to give it, you. Know, right now now I think they're you know, they're they're using it as we can email you your receipt because a lot of people are paperlesss they'd rather have the receipt emailed. Well, then, now now the company has your email address, right, that might not. It's fine, I mean, email address is pretty benign. But then you get you get bombarded and you know, or like your phone and they're like, oh no, we would never text you. And the next day you get.

41:55 Right, you get attacked. Well, we're going to text. You when things go on sale and when there's ads right, it's yeah. Yeah, so wow. So outside of data privacy and being careful of what you share online, are there other ways that we can protect ourselves when specifically regarding around like romance scams. Yeah, I would say, like, I mean, I know it's super basic, but I think in the age of AI right now, with the fact that people can fake videos pretty realistically, I would say, like, just have a rule to not engage with people that are not in your hometown and they don't want to meet, like try and meet straight away, like, you know, if this is a real relationship, if it is a real, real thing, Like if somebody contacts you and it's comings are very good, it'll contact you and say, I'm just on a business trip right now. I'm like some coming back next month.

42:56 Just you know, don't don't engage in conversations two deep conversations, just say oh great, like it seems like we have a lot in common, but like, let me talk when you're back. When you're back, you know. And I think I think, like it's it's almost impossible to give any other advice because I think once you get emotionally involved, it's sometimes too late to actually give any rational advice. But I think, like with AI becoming so good and creating really good deep fakes, I don't know that you can even be sure when you're speaking to somebody on a video that that's the real pace exactly. That that's because you have to know the nuances to look for, right. I recently had to verify myself and I had to do a video selfie and you know, they said, okay, turn your head to the right, turn your head to the left, and I do that a few times, and it was monitoring, you know, and so you know, it's it's interesting the advances that they're making verify somebody.

44:01 Definitely, I mean, like like like AI, it's good, but like sometimes when you like like lift your hands or something like that, it can kind of like go a little bit weird. So like I mean, you could, like that's one thing, if you're talking to somebody on a video, you can ask them to lift the hands to take off the background, or you know, to kind of like you know, put something in front of them, like a book or something like that. And sometimes they can give you an idea whether there's a filter over the video. But I I, you know, I'm so impressed with how far AI has come just in a year or two that I would say, I wouldn't even like say that that's safe. Come, let's just meet in local Starbucks, right.

44:49 Yeah, right, definitely, because so many things can be faked. I know. It's it's like with the AI, I would say, And and that's something I've just updated my book. The second edition is coming in October or November, I think. And one of the things that I talk about is like, how AI is going to really distort what a reality is because reality is shaped by what we hear and what we see, and both can be faked by AI. Now exactly right. Voices can be cloned, right, places can be cloned, So how do we how will we ever know? Right? Unless you're standing in front of.

45:30 Me, exactly and you still have to keep your guard up when you're meeting somebody in person, absolutely right, because they still can you know, it happens unfortunately all the time. Right, We're trying to tell you something you don't need, you know, They're they're trying to, you know, develop a friendship or a love interest in order to have you sign everything over. To them or maybe giver right. I mean, it's just so you still have to keep your guard up even in person. But yeah, wow, there's been a lot of great information. I think the number one thing is everybody has to keep their guard up and don't be afraid to question.

46:11 Yes, you have to question everything, like I think we are now, uh like I I mean some of these need fakes are so good they have full the CEOs companies to send millions, Like I think, you just need to question everything. And and it's it's to some degree, it's really sad, you know that we're live in that kind of a world, you know, but as humans, we want to trust, we want to be nice to other people, and we're being told constantly. To not trust into the right Yeah right, it's yeah, it's a. It's a whole different world. Yeah. Anyways, thank you so much for joining us. And I'm hoping in the near future we can get where you and Aaron and I are all on together and talk about some different things. I think that absolutely that would be great. But thank you again for everything. I can't wait for your your second edition, for your book to come out.

47:05 That's going to be. Honest, so it has I mean everything you read in the first edition, is there a plus more examples more uh, you know, more examples, some things on AI and how I is going to change the landscape of broad and so on and so forth. But yeah, like I bought it a lot more examples to just kind of I think that's how people learns, so I'll be focused on that. Yeah, all right, well, very good, all right, thanks Martina, Okayane, all right, so thank you guys for joining today. Lots of great information about romance scams, scams in general, some red flags to look out for, some different psychology behind the scams, different scammer techniques, how they've evolved, and you know, as Martina and I just discussed, keep our guard up and we need to question, we need to question, and we need to very before we can begin to trust.

48:02 So don't forget our website, Roseadvocacy dot org. You'll find our social media channels out there and all of the episodes from the radio show or on our YouTube channel, and scroll down to the bottom of the homepage and sign up for our emailed and or mailed newsletters. It's a way to get updated scam information and protection tips, and also just to keep scam prevention top of mind. So when you're contacted, because you will be contacted. You're more apped, you have scam prevention in the back of your mind, and so you're going to be better app to take that pause and check things out, do your research and verify instead of getting engaging and getting into that emotional state and then making some not so good decisions.

48:51 So Brian Watson is going to be here as the guest host next week, and I'm sure he'll have a lot of great valuable information for you. So thank you and I will see you. I will see you back here in two weeks, but look forward to seeing Brian next week. Well that's all the knowledge for this episode. Tune in every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on KFOURHD Radio at KFOURHD dot com as Joyce explores a variety of knowledge. So you have the power to make scam protection your healthy habit and until then, feel free to reach out to Joyce and let's talk about scams.